One of the great things about building a burger from the ground up is you can leave in the good stuff (protein), and leave out the bad (cholesterol). The revolutionary Beyond Burger is the first plant-based burger that is so meat-like, it’s sold in the meat case at grocery stores and on the menu alongside beef burgers at restaurants nationwide.
Kelly’s Gingernut Pub in Cape Charles, renown for its delicious pub burgers, has added the all vegan Beyond Burger to its menu. The sandwich is wonderfully juicy, tasty and unlike other “veggie” burgers, has a meat-like consistency that is sure to satisfy most carnivore yearnings. The great thing about this burger is that Kelly’s treats it straight up pub style, just the way we’ve come to expect from their other offerings. It’s just a great burger!
The Beyond Burger is made from simple plant-based ingredients, applied in fresh ways. Peas provide the protein. Trace amounts of beet lend the beefy red color. Coconut oil and potato starch ensure mouth-watering juiciness and chew. The result is an uncompromisingly delicious burger, made directly from plants.
The Kelly’s Beyond is $12, and comes with Fries, chips or slaw.
“Customers love it. I have even had 5 or 6 of ‘em!” – Gene Kelly, owner Kelly’s Gingernut Pub.
Gene Kelly says
Thanks Wayne! It really is tasty, and has become a great seller!
Jennifer Chatmon says
Hi – I just ate at the pub, and as a vegan for many years, I’m familiar with Beyond Burger and enjoy the taste. However, it should be pointed out, that a vegan burger, ideally, should have vegan items to accompany it – like the bun. The current bun option is brioche, which contains eggs, and I didn’t dare inquire as to whether or not the Beyond Burgers were cooked separately from animal proteins. Anyhow, as a result, my son and I, who is also vegan, had our burgers on rye bread. Although, I appreciate the changing times, it is important to recognize that the vegan burger alone won’t be sufficient for people who follow a plant-based diet. Thank you for adding the option to your menu.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Call yer veggie sammich what you will, it is not now nor will it ever be a “Burger”.
Abomination. Ground up animal feed. Some round thing. But never a Burger.
Ever.
Never.
Bleh.
What’s next, alcohol free whiskey in an Irish bar?
Gene Kelly says
The demand is there, as long as it sells…..it stays!
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Gene, I’d never try to tell you what to sell-why, that’s Paul Plante’s job- but I absolutely retain the American right to engage in colloquy over the designation!!!
T’ain’t a burger, it’s a veggie patty!!!!!!!
LOL!!!! Plus, I enjoy aggravating that Plante fellow. He needs a poke to keep him sane up in the North woods. Seems like no one up there will hang out with him so he is reduced to yapping online.
Karen Davis says
Kelly’s Gingernut Pub’s Vegan Beyond Burger sounds wonderful! It’s exciting to know that it’s on the menu in Cape Charles. I will stop by as soon as possible, and let others know. Thank you for the great news!
Suzie Harris says
I am so excited, I can hardly contain myself…
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Meanwhile, I’m grinding a 1/3 brisket, 1/3 chuck and 1/3 sirloin mixture to make my BURGERS at home.
Buttery brioche bun.
Lettuce, not very much-just enough to hold the single slice of ‘mater and thick red onion.
A nice slice of good cheddar cheese, made out of cow’s milk like God intended.
Medium rare, so the juices flow out of it with every delicious bite.
God bless ya with yer’ veggie patty but it is not now, nor will it ever be a ‘Burger”.
Miss Davis, I’m real happy for you, but honestly try one of mine(Or a REAL Burger at the Nut) and you will use many many more exclamation marks!!!!!!!!!
Suzie Harris says
Human Beings are on the very top of the food chain….I will eat everything I want as often as I please. So sick of Liberal Fem Nazis with food issues.
B. Taylor says
Suzie…..why so bitter and angry. Did you ever hear the old saying, if you can’t say something nice, don’t say anything at all? Merry Christmas Suzie….maybe Santa will bring you a smile for Christmas.
Paul Plante says
Suzie, northern gentleman that I am, I am not going to disrespect you in here as you think our fellow American patriot Chas Cornweller has done, who only has your best interests at heart, as he does for all of us in here, but quite seriously, you are deluding yourself if you think that human beings are at the top of any food chains in the natural world, and unless you are an immortal, which is always possible, your claim “I will eat everything I want as often as I please” smacks of being hubristic, actually.
In the natural world, there are many creatures you can’t eat who would love to make a meal out of you, and the real top of the food chain is microbes like bacteria and viruses which are taking down human beings right and left, all the time.
And Suzie, do yourself a favor, and GOOGLE “hamburger recalls” as I have just done.
For example, May 23, 2014, Ground beef recall: USDA releases list of stores – USA Today:
On Monday, USDA recalled about 1.8 million pounds of ground beef products due to possible E. coli contamination.
The meat was traced to Detroit-based Wolverine Packing Co.
The beef was the possible source of 11 E. coli illnesses across four states, including three hospitalizations.
end quotes
For the record, Suzie, E. coli bacteria are higher up on the food chain than are human beings.
And then there is “Creation Gardens Inc. Recalls Ground Beef and Beef Primal Cut”:
WASHINGTON, June 5, 2017 – Creation Gardens, Inc., a Louisville, Ky., establishment, is recalling approximately 22,832 pounds of raw ground beef and beef primal cut products that may be contaminated with E. coli O157:H7, the U.S. Department of Agriculture’s Food Safety and Inspection Service (FSIS) announced today.
And that list goes on and on and on.
Aren’t you thankful, especially at this time of the year, that you didn’t end up eating any of that tainted meat?
Chas Cornweller says
Human beings on top of the food chain, indeed! What a mighty proud and arrogant species of animal! Decreed among themselves that they are made in the image of the god they created. From there they claimed dominion over all creatures, great and small, weak or strong and continued to slaughter and decimate at will vast amounts of these creatures their god created until many of these fellow creatures of the earth were gone. Then they set upon themselves. Killing, maiming, torturing…fellow men, women and children until they had decimated many of their own. But, that was not enough. Huge amounts of wood lands were cut down (Lebanese cedar forest) to build war boats (triremes). Only to have them burn or sink to the depths. Finally, in their ultimate arrogance they build huge cities made from resources stolen from the ground and the mountains that surround them. How many times? How many more times? All in the name of progress. Man’s progress. And no one, but man.
Suzie Harris, I pray you do eat anything you want, as much as you want. You’re not going to be told what to do. No sir. For you are a proud animal, standing tall on your principals and moral values. Am I right? No matter the cost, no matter the justification of it all. By god, you are rightfully entitled to that all beef patty with its special sauce. Am I right? You are entitled to your gas guzzler SUV and damn the squirrel that gets in your path. Am I right? Suzie Harris, it’s people like you that sicken my heart. You and your thinking and your arrogance is exactly what is slowly killing this beautiful planet. One sumptuous meal at a time. We don’t stop and think, we just take. Is the beef industry sustainable? Is the chicken industry sustainable? Is the Chesapeake Bay sustainable? Are you thinking along these lines? Probably not.
No, Suzie Harris, you don’t have food issues. You have heart issues. The arrogance of mankind has gotten so deep in your soul, you think you are entitled to all this and then some. But, the actual truth is…
We are not. We were given stewardship over this planet. Nothing more, nothing less. We can choose to run it into the ground, burn it down around us, until the last super powerful human being starves to death on this desolate wasteland, once called earth. Or we can start to change our thinking on what we eat, how we harvest what we eat and how we maintain and thrive as seven billion and counting on a fragile bubble/machine suspended in a distant solar system light years from anywhere. It begins with an attitude. And if you ask me, which I am sure no one will. Gene and Kelly’s Gingernut Pub is on the right track. At the very least, they are thinking in line with catering to all and not just a select, entitled, privileged few. It is this attitude that is slowly, and perceptively seeping into a younger, more thoughtful generation. You know, the ones that come after you…that have to clean up the mess that the older ones left for them. Gene is in line to this critical thinking…his menu reflects that.
Suzie Harris says
You need to learn to respect woman. You sound like a Yankee. My husband would like to speak to you. He is shocked at your lack of discretion.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Well thank Gaia that YOU Chas Cornweller feeeeeeeellllllz that Gene and the Nut are on the right track.
Cheezuz, Chas, you sound like one of those whacko 1970’s freaks spewing nonsense about peak oil, or starving populations because we can’t feed ’em. All of them as wrong as you are on your dire predictions.
You libs will believe ANYTHING, won’t ya?
BTW, is your computer made out of wood, or is it like all others, made out of OIL PRODUCTS?
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Paul Plante says
Do you enjoy a good sloppy greasy cheeseburger, Mike, with goo getting all over your hands as you try to eat it?
Now, that is an American taste treat, alright, and who do these liberals think they are trying to take that away from us, along with our Bibles and guns?
Paul Plante says
The hell he sounds like a Yankee.
I’m a Yankee if that means “northerner,” as opposed to its more proper application to a shrewd merchant from New England, especially a Massachusetts puritan, and I don’t treat women with disrespect.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Paul!!! Congratulations!!!! You CAN respond in under a bazillion paragraphs!!!!!
Way to go, sparky.
I’ma go have a cheeseburger, and yes it will drip grease.
Paul Plante says
Mike, I in turn am glad, damn glad, in fact, to see that you seem to have gotten over that hacking cough that you were afflicted with for a while.
Believe me, Mike, you truly had people worried about you up this way where I am.
They thought some microbe like the Black Plague or something equally terrible was coming to carry you off, and what a loss to the world of journalism that would have been, as well as a blow to the hearts of your many admirers in the candid world, and you know they are legion, Mike.
But maybe somebody capable of building a lab, and engaging in research created a drug/inoculation/shot that killed the said microbes afflicting you and giving you that terrible cough.
And hey, Mike, the 1970s!
That sure does bring back a lot of memories, eh?
Did I ever tell you about the research I was doing back in the 70’s on the climate effects of nuclear generating facility cooling tower plumes?
That is how long, Mike, we have been aware of the climate change impacts of those cooling towers, but you know what, Mike, and I am sure a savvy dude like you does – that all got the HUSH put on it.
SHHHHHHHHH!
Don’t tell, people, it will make them nervous and if they are nervous they won’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, and it they don’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, they won’t spend money, and if they don’t spend money, the economy will crash, so silence is the best policy.
Look at the article “AP IMPACT: US nuke regulators weaken safety rules” By JEFF DONN, AP National Writer, 20 JUNE 2011, which touches on this as follows:
Called “Oyster Creak” by some critics because of its aging problems, this boiling water reactor began running in 1969 and ranks as the country’s oldest operating commercial nuclear power plant.
Its license was extended in 2009 until 2029, though utility officials announced in December that they’ll shut the reactor 10 years earlier rather than build state-ordered cooling towers.
end quote
Cooling towers, Mike, have you ever witnessed one in operation?
If not, you should drive up toe Pennsylvania near Scranton and you will see a huge one putting out more horsepower that you can imagine.
You see, Mike, and this is something that has been known since probably before you were born, nuclear plants produce prodigious amounts of heat which must be disposed of to the environment.
Case in point:
“Drought could force nuke-plant shutdowns”
By MITCH WEISS, Associated Press
Last updated: 12:52 p.m., Wednesday, January 23, 2008
LAKE NORMAN, N.C. — Nuclear reactors across the Southeast could be forced to throttle back or temporarily shut down later this year because drought is drying up the rivers and lakes that supply power plants with the awesome amounts of cooling water they need to operate.
end quotes
Focus on that word “awesome,” Mike, which means “extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring great admiration, apprehension, or fear.”
Getting back to that article:
“Water is the nuclear industry’s Achilles’ heel,” said Jim Warren, executive director of N.C. Waste Awareness and Reduction Network, an environmental group critical of nuclear power.
“You need a lot of water to operate nuclear plants.”
He added: “This is becoming a crisis.”
end quotes
A crisis, Mike, where crisis means a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger or emergency, disaster, catastrophe, calamity, predicament, plight, mess, trouble, dire straits, difficulty, extremity, a time when a difficult or important decision must be made, and that was back in 2008, so, a lot of water over the dam since then, ain’t it, Mike?
So you with your sensitivity to these kinds of things, anyway, can appreciate just how much worse for the environment and humankind things have become since then.
And once again back to that article, Mike:
All but two are built on the shores of lakes and rivers and rely on submerged intake pipes to draw billions of gallons of water for use in cooling and condensing steam after it has turned the plants’ turbines.
At some plants — those with tall, Three Mile Island-style cooling towers — a lot of the water travels up the tower and is lost to evaporation.
Progress spokeswoman Julie Hahn said the Harris reactor, for example, sucks up 33 million gallons a day, with 17 million gallons lost to evaporation via its big cooling towers.
end quote
You see what I am saying here, Mike?
That 17 million gallons lost to evaporation per day from this one plant alone is water in a vapor form that goes high into the atmosphere.
This is what our research back in 1975 was looking into, where does that water go to.
And the simple answer is right up there above our heads, where it is unstable, and thus, will come back down which I believe it is doing now, as our research predicted it would.
And that is not any kind of rocket science, at all, as any little kid who has ever thrown a rock in the air, only to have it hit them in the eye on its way back down could tell you.
And that brings us to the NRC, and cover-ups in the name of continued profits.
Cover-ups done as emergency orders.
When these nuke plants were first licensed, as with the ones on Lake Ontario in NYS, they had a maximum temperature rise for the lake water that they could not supposedly exceed.
Now, like the 17 million gallons per day, each day of operation, with this heat output, you have a cumulative effect, like leaving a pan of water on a stove burner.
No matter how low the heat, it is still going in and the water will eventually boil.
So what did the NRC do when this limit was reached?
Let’s take a look:
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation (NRR) Items of Interest – Week Ending August 19, 2005
Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, Unit No. 1 (NMP1) – Water Temperature Emergency Amendment
On August 12, 2005, the staff issued an emergency license amendment to Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, LLC (the licensee), which revised NMP1 Technical Specification (TS) 3.3.7, “Containment Spray System,” to increase the maximum allowable lake water temperature in TS 3.3.7.f. from 81°F to 83°F.
This change was requested under emergency circumstances to avoid a reactor shutdown due to a higher than anticipated water temperature rise in Lake Ontario and weather forecasts for higher temperatures over the next 10-day period.
TS 3.3.7.g. requires the plant to begin shutting down within 1 hour of reaching the TS 3.3.7.f. limit and be in hot shutdown conditions within 8 hours and in cold shutdown within 24 hours.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/secys/2005/secy2005-0155/2005-0155scy.html
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collecti…05-0155scy.html
Yes, you got it, Mike, as I figured you would; they let them take the water temperature even higher, with no review whatsoever of the effects of that temperature rise on the increased amount of evaporation that would cause, given that evaporation is a function of surface area and temperature.
And once heated, that volume of water tends to stay warm, since more heat is going into it, 24/7/365.
I would say that New Jersey wanted cooling towers added to that plant, because the same thing was happening down there.
Then we have the Fort Calhoun plant in Nebraska which discharges into the Missouri River.
Generic Environmental Impact Statement for License Renewal of Nuclear Plants – Supplement 12 Regarding Fort Calhoun Station, Unit 1
Final Report U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation
Washington, DC 20555-0001
Manuscript Completed: August 2003
Date Published: August 2003
Division of Regulatory Improvement Programs
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Washington, DC 20555-0001
The cooling-water circulation system is operated in compliance with provisions of NPDES Permit NE0000418 for Fort Calhoun Station.
The permit currently limits discharge temperatures to 43.3 C (110 F) and allows a conditional discharge temperature of 44.4 C (112 F) under the terms of a Consent Order that was entered into by the OPPD and the NDEQ (OPPD 2002a).
The terms of the Consent Order allow for continued full-power operation of Fort Calhoun Station during the unusually high ambient river temperatures that have been experienced in the Missouri River in recent years.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collecti…/sr1437s12a.pdf
Notice, Mike, that a GENERIC IMPACT STATEMENT means essentially no review of cumulative impacts, and notice the language about the increased temperature of the river, and ask yourself why the river is getting hot and what that means for evaporation into the atmosphere.
And this goes on and on and on.
end quotes
People are oblivious to the world around them, Mike.
They spend their time inside air-conditioned cars and offices and homes, or in air-conditioned casinos and gambling joints or on manicured golf courses like this present mindless incumbent in the white house, and so they are living lives completely isolated from the forces of nature around them, while lacking the basic understanding of the hydrologic cycle that school children and simple country folks whose lives are determined by the weather have.
And it is those people, Mike, like this up-jumped casino operator/TV reality star host we now have in the white house, that we turn to for solutions to this mess, as if the very best advice one can get on the environment has to come from a mindless fool who doesn’t even know where the environment even is.
So what is wrong with that picture, Mike?
And outside of going outside in the midst of the storm to shake our fist at the heavens, there is nothing we can now do to halt the change.
How do we now go about, pulling all of the heat ENERGY we have put into Lake Ontario, for example?
Do we now invent some giant form of refrigerator to remove that heat?
But where will the power then come from to run that refrigeration unit?
Where will the heat from that power generation go to?
Out into space with all the other waste heat we are generating to maintain a lifestyle that is consumptive, which requires more and more environmental destruction and devastation, like blowing up whole mountains, and therefore, unsustainable?
And when you manage to pull all that heat out of Lake Ontario, what on earth do you do with it?
Put it in a rocket and blast it off into space?
Or maybe we can get some politicians to come along and tell us there really is no problem, so go back home, for there is nothing here to see.
As Forrest Gump once said, stupid is as stupid does, and people, here we are, heading for that apex at a frenzied pace, because we have built a machine with no OFF BUTTON.
Those nuclear plants can’t be turned off without destroying the unstable and unsustainable U.S. economy, so the only other alternative is for the supposed “regulatory” agency to keep looking the other way while granting emergency waivers that allow the nuclear facilities to keep raising the water temperature of the receiving bodies more and more, which in turn pumps yet more heat energy and water vapor into the environment, while hoping that nobody will notice.
And most of us won’t.
More fools us, then, is how history will look at this age of gluttony and greed we are now mired in.
tkenny says
Two words – Hog Wash!! Tell me, in the winter do you wear you tin foil hat under or over your wool cap?
As usually it’s easier to follow a drunk walking down the street than it is to follow your logic in a comment. I can’t figure out if you’re saying nuclear reactors cause climate change or cooling towers cause climate change.
Are you saying that a nuclear reactor is the cause for Lake Ontario to warm? If so, you have no idea what you are talking about. Period, don’t even try to argue the fact. If Lake Ontario was a glass of water and you kept adding warm water you would be correct, however Lake Ontario is not a glass nor is it a closed system.
Nuclear reactors and their out pipes create great fishing opportunities all year round, a contributing factor to global warming – nope.
If you are trying to state that cooling towers, releasing their steam cause global warming again no. Can it cause a micro climate in a small area close to the tower, yes.
Thank you for today’s belly laugh.
Paul Plante says
Hogwash, my eye, tkenny and you know it, and you are just jealous that more people like Mike on the internet than like you, who are seen by people up this way as a kind of Snidely Whiplash type of dude, whereas Mike is clearly much more grounded and much more in tune with his feminine side than you are, which is what makes Mike such an accomplished gourmet chef, and these days, tkenny, people who are much more in tune with their inner selves like Mike are the ones who draw the bigger internet audience, at least in here.
No slurs intended on you there, tkenny, but it’s just the way it is.
If you don’t like it, then change yourself and become a different person, maybe try being like Mike, more often!
And of course that waste heat from those nuclear generators is heating Lake Ontario, tkenny, school children know that for a fact.
So when you say “I can’t figure out if you’re saying nuclear reactors cause climate change or cooling towers cause climate change,” it is because you are totally clueless on the subject of thermodynamics and heat transfer and let us face it, tkenny, you seem devoid of any sense whatsoever with that comment, which is inane.
We are talking about heat, here, tkenny, prodigious amounts of heat to warm up a great lake, and obviously, to anyone with a lick of sense, anyway, that source of heat could not be the cooling tower, nor would it be he cooling tower, and I am amazed that you could think it would be.
The source of the heat, tkenny, and I really thought this was basic high school science, is the nuclear reactor, where they are “harnessing the power of the sun,” as they used to say, anyway.
Right now, tkenny, I have the NOAA surface temperature map for Lake Ontario https://www.glerl.noaa.gov/res/glcfs/glcfs.php?lake=o&ext=swt&type=N&hr=42 up on the screen and it is showing the lake-wide average surface temperature for 12/14/2017 00:00 GMT to be 45.93 F versus GLSEA daily mean surface temperature for Lake Ontario = 44.20 F.
Here where I am, to the south and east of that lake, it was eight (8) degrees F this morning because of the polar vortex which has brought down artic air from the north, and lakes here are freezing, while to the north and west, Lake Ontario is near forty-six (46) degrees warm.
Where do you think all that heat is going, tkenny – up into space?
So when you say, “Are you saying that a nuclear reactor is the cause for Lake Ontario to warm?,” the answer is hell yes, tkenny – of course that is what I am saying, because that is what basic science says will happen.
Why do you think that up here to the north where it actually does get cold, tkenny, people prefer hot water heating systems to hot air heating systems?
It is because of the heat capacity of water, tkenny – high school science there, dude.
And why do you think they put water into the radiators of cars, tkenny?
It is for the same reason that water is used to cool nuclear generating reactors so they don’t melt down
And what happens to that water in your car’s radiator when the engine is running, tkenny, or don’t you know?
The answer is that the water gets hot, and if it is not itself cooled by the air flowing through the radiator, then the engine will overheat and the radiator will boil over.
And the waste heat from that process goes out the tailpipe to heat the environment, and it goes out of the radiator to heat up the environment, which is controlled by water in its three phases, tkenny, which is yet more high school science you seem to have missed in your youth.
So, clearly, when you say, “If so, you have no idea what you are talking about,” you are being self-congratulatory there, tkenny, which means you7 are looking min the mirror and talking about yourself.
Period, don’t even try to argue the fact.
And what is this hogwash, tkenny:
If Lake Ontario was a glass of water and you kept adding warm water you would be correct, however Lake Ontario is not a glass nor is it a closed system.
end quote
If Lake Ontario was a glass of water, and you kept adding warm water, then it logically follows that the glass would soon get full, if it wasn’t already, and then it would start spoiling warm water all over the floor, but who is talking about that here, tkenny?
Where did you come up with the daft idea that anyone is pouring warm water in to Lake Ontario?
What is being poured into Lake Ontario is HEAT ENERGY, tkenny, in prodigious amounts, not warm water, and it is that heat energy, tkenny, which comes directly from cooling nuclear reactors, that is making Lake Ontario waters warm.
And that takes us to your next inane statement, to wit:
Nuclear reactors and their out pipes create great fishing opportunities all year round, a contributing factor to global warming – nope.
end quotes
That, tkenny, even for you, is a totally bizarre statement – the fact that you now have “great fishing” (tkenny, are you a lobbyist for the nuclear industry, perhaps?) because of “warm” water created by the “out” pipes of nuclear generators where once would have been found ice is crystal clear evidence even to a blind man that indeed, nuclear generating facilities are a contributing factor to global warming – yup – and we have known that with scientific evidence since the 1970s, tkenny.
And if you want some real information about the environmental harm caused by nuclear plant “out” pipes, tkenny, study up on Storm King on the Hudson River, whose “warm” water from its “out” pipe was scalding migrating fish coming up the river to death.
For some easily-read background, consult “The History of The Hudson River Valley: From the Civil War to Modern Times” by Vernon Benjamin, specifically, the later chapters in Section VI, entitled “Modern Times.” where the author delves into the well-documented endemic corruption of the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, in chapter 40, “Deconstructing Indian Point,” and chapter 43, “Saving Storm King.”
At p. 457, the author makes mention of the state of New York’s efforts to hide fish kills at the Indian Point nuclear plant on the lower Hudson River, which is why we never here of these things, tkenny, because of “putting on the hush,” as you are trying but failing to do here with your ridiculous and specious premise that the heat from nuclear generating facilities has no effect on the environment, which is preposterous, as is your statement, “If you are trying to state that cooling towers, releasing their steam cause global warming again no.”
As to your statement “Can it cause a micro climate in a small area close to the tower, yes,” their effects go far beyond the local environment, which is why that research project was shut down in 1975, to keep those results from being published.
That is how long, tkenny, we have been aware of the climate change impacts of those cooling towers, but you know what, tkenny, and I am sure a savvy dude like you does – that all got the HUSH put on it.
SHHHHHHHHH!
Don’t tell, people, it will make them nervous and if they are nervous they won’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, and it they don’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, they won’t spend money, and if they don’t spend money, the economy will crash, so silence is the best policy.
In closing, tkenny, dude, thanks a whole lot for today’s belly laugh, it was a huge one and as such, it was greatly appreciated!
tkenny says
That’s a lot to read above there but there are some clues that you are clueless about what you are talking about.
Your location temperature, other areas freezing and the big lake being 44 degrees. As you would say, every school child, even those back from your day knows that land masses cool faster and heat up faster than large bodies of water. So big deal its at 44, if the weather stays cold for another month it will probably hit 38. So it’s quite obvious that you know how to spell thermodynamic but maybe you are lacking in some understanding
Did you know that there are actually 3 reactors on the lake? And those 3 aren’t causing the lake to get any warmer. Did you know the lake never completely freezes? Why? Because it’s too deep. So what the heck actually causes the lake to warm. The sun as you might guess? Yea, some, but that is mostly surface change. Climate change, minus your reactor contribution is whats causing the lake to slowly warm. Droughts, snow-less winters, warmer than usually summers/winters . Thats the cause not your reactors.
By the way if your theory was true France should be quite tropical by now since they are right behind the US in number of reactors but their land mass is much smaller than the US.
Anyone who knows anything about thermodynamics would never use a car radiator analogy to describe a lake’s thermodynamics. Large bodies of water have watersheds (if you spent any time on the Delmarva peninsula, you might have know that) Lake Ontario’s watershed is 2,460 sq miles, 5,891 miles of rivers and streams and 60 lakes,ponds and reservoirs. http://www.dec.ny.gov/lands/48368.html That’s just the US side, I’m too lazy to check for the Canadian side. These inflows influence the temperature of the Lake not the reactors.
Now, do I think nuclear reactors are harmless, nope but do i think they are the leading cause of lake or water bodies warming? No. Will you be suggesting next that there are alien bodies in Area 51?
Mike have you ever fish Oyster Creek in Jan or Feb?
Paul Plante says
That’s a lot to read above here, tkenny, but there are many clues there that you are clueless about what you are talking about.
Thermal mass, tkenny.
Do you know what that is?
Do you have a clue?
The ancient Scandinavians and Rus people did, you know, living in a cold climate as they did, with their masonry stoves using the masonry, especially soapstone, if they could get it, to store heat.
Being poor and living out in the country in a place where it gets cold, tkenny, I emulate them, because I burn wood all winter to survive.
So I know something about heat from that process, and heat transfer, and the use of thermal mass to store heat, like my tile-covered masonry chimney.
And there are other houses up here that use large reservoirs of water as thermal mass, both for heating and cooling.
Thermal mass is the ability of a material to absorb and store heat energy, tkenny.
And basic high school science used to tell us that for a pound of water, that was one BTU per degree Fahrenheit.
So if you are cooling something extremely hot, like a nuclear reactor, and you have access to forty degree (40) water, and the nuclear regulatory agency will let you discharge that water into the ENVIRONMENT at one hundred twenty (120) degrees, then every pound of water going through the cooling system is going to carry off with it eighty (80) BTU’s of waste heat that must be gotten rid of to protect the reactor from melting down.
Now, tkenny, being from down there in the sunny south, where life is beautiful all the time, and the skies are not cloudy all day, you probably did not recognize it, but that is a heating system, tkenny, just as running a car engine outside a house and blowing air through the radiator into the house would be a heating system.
In this case, all of those nuclear plants dumping waste heat into Lake Ontario are the engine, the heat source, notwithstanding you get some electricity out of it, just the same as a running car engine produces electricity, and the lake water is the thermal mass absorbing and storing that waste heat as heat energy it in turn passes on to the environment around it, warming it, just as hot water flowing though pipes in a house up north warms it in the winter.
And you are correct when you say Lake Ontario is not a closed system, but hey, any schoolchild up this way knows that as well, so that is no great secret you have exposed here, as if by saying that, you could somehow catch me, who lives up here, off balance about what is in my backyard.
For our immediate purposes here, tkenny, water flows OUT of Lake Erie, down the NIAGARA RIVER, into Lake Ontario, through Lake Ontario and out down the SAINT LAWRENCE RIVER to the ocean.
So, tkenny, inputs and outputs.
For your theory to be correct then, that it is water flowing into Lake Ontario that is warming it, then the water coming out of Lake Erie and down the Niagara River would have to be warmer to account for temperature losses in transit, but the NOAA site http://www.weather.gov/buf/LakeTemp for the mouth of the Niagara River at Buffalo this morning is as follows: 847 AM EST Sat Dec 16 2017 – The water temperature off Buffalo is 39 degrees.
And yet downstream, Lake Ontario is forty-six (46) degrees, tkenny, and if you look at a map, you will notice that Lake Erie should be getting more sunlight than Lake Ontario.
So where is the extra energy coming from, tkenny, to raise each pound of water flowing out of Lake Erie at 39 degrees up to 46 degrees in Lake Ontario?
Do you think it gets heated up a lot going over Niagara Falls, perhaps?
As to nuclear reactors pumping heat energy into the environment, and thus warming it, let’s go to a New York Times article, tkenny, entitled “Nuclear Plant’s Use of River Water Prompts $1.1 Billion Debate With State” by Matthew L. Waldaug on Aug. 23, 2010, where we are informed as follows:
BUCHANAN, N.Y. — Just beneath the wind-stippled surface of the Hudson River here, huge pipes suck enough water into the Indian Point nuclear plant every second to fill three Olympic swimming pools.
end quotes
Check that out, tkenny, for that is the basis for our mathematical calculations in here – some real-world data, as opposed to some factoids pulled out of your nether regions or outerspace that make a mockery of real science.
According to my engineering data search, tkenny, olympic-size swimming pool are approximately 50 m or 164 feet in length, 25 m or 82 feet in width, and 2 m or 6 feet in depth and those measurements create a surface area of 13,454.72 square feet and a volume of 88,263 cubic feet, so the pool has 660,253.09 gallons of water, which equals about 5,511,556 lbs.
So every second, tkenny, that is the amount of water going through that one nuclear plant 3 times 5,511,556 lbs., or 16,534,668 pounds of Hudson River water.
And going back to that article, we have this:
With the cool river water inside the box but outside the tubes, the steam condenses back into water that is pumped toward the reactor again to be reboiled into steam.
The river water then flows out of the box, through a canal, and eventually back into the river, its temperature, at this time of year, about 15 degrees higher than when it entered.
end quotes
So, 16,534,668 pounds of Hudson River water every second flowing through that one plant are raised 15 degrees higher than the temperature was on entry, which means it absorbed 248,020,020 BTUs, tkenny, of heat energy that would not be there but for the nuclear reactor.
Let’s assume a transit time of 15 minutes, so we have 992,080,080 BTUs per hour going into the environment that would not be there, but for the nuclear reactor, and that works out to be 29,636 boiler horsepower, the energy rate needed to evaporate 34.5lb of water at 212 °F (100 °C) in one hour, where one boiler horsepower is equal to 33,475 BTU/h., which in turn equals 290745.58 Kilowatts per hour at 9.81055407×P[BHP]=P[kW].
According to insideenergy.org, if you are a perfectly average American living in a perfectly average household, your monthly electricity bill will read 911 kilowatt hours (kWh), so that waste heat going into the Hudson River from that reactor alone would be enough to power 319 average houses every month, just to give us an idea of scale here.
So, tkenny, if that much river water has been heated up fifteen degrees and put back into the river, then the environment has been changed by the nuclear reactor, plain and simple, and now, every second, there are 248,020,020 BTUs of heat energy being put into that river to heat the environment around it, since every schoolchild knows as bodies of water heat up or cool down, they effect the environment around them by shifting seasons, and warming up the average temperature, so insect species harmful to trees can make their way further north, like these boring beetles we now have up here decimating hickory trees and the wood-eating bees that have migrated north as it warms up here, which are decimating wooden structures.
So, when you say “As you would say, every school child, even those back from your day knows that land masses cool faster and heat up faster than large bodies of water,” I would say that basic earth science from high school says you have that backwards.
Large bodies of water control how land masses around them heat and cool.
That is how you can go to Ireland, which is quite a ways north of the Delmarva Peninsula, and find palm trees growing down near Cork.
As to your statement that Lake Ontario never freezes, and “So big deal its at 44,” it’s quite obvious that you know how to spell thermodynamic but maybe you are lacking in some understanding, so let us go to the WeatherWorks article “The Lake Effect Snow Machine” Posted: December 6, 2016, 7:11 pm by cspeciale, where we learn as follows about Lake Ontario:
Lake effect snow is a phenomenon that is most common to areas around the Great Lakes and Upstate New York.
It typically occurs during the late fall and early winter when cold air from Canada passes over the still warm lake waters, namely Lake Erie and Lake Ontario for us in the Northeast.
Chilly air over the warm lake water allows the moist air near the lake surface to quickly rise, leading to clouds and eventually snow.
One of the most important ingredients needed for lake effect snow is a large temperature difference between the lake waters and the air temperatures.
end quotes
Have you ever been in a lake effect white-out, tkenny?
Have you ever seen snow?
Do you know what it looks like when it is three feet deep and still coming?
Do you know what happens, tkenny, as more and more heat energy is pumped into Lake Ontario by those nuclear generators?
The lake effect storms become more violent, is that answer, because that surcharged energy put in by the nuclear facilities causes that violence.
But you don’t have to worry about that, do you, tkenny, so you feel safe and smug in here, trying to mock me to draw attention away from this subject.
As to your claim that Lake Ontario doesn’t freeze, we have this from that WeatherWorks article about Lake Ontario:
By January and Feberuary, Lake Erie and Lake Ontario start to freeze, reducing the lake effect snow events during the second half of the winter.
However, if the winter is mild, parts of the lakes may never freeze and lake effect snow can continue into March.
end quotes
Why are you down south saying that Lake Ontario doesn’t freeze when people up here who know better say it does?
And as the lake heats up, so it isn’t freezing, then the air and land around it are effected, and over time, in my lifetime, it has warmed up considerably up this way, and our seasons have definitely shifted, just as our modeling in high school earth science predicted it would.
So, yes, tkenny, nuclear reactors and the massive amounts of heat energy they put into the environment, especially the cooling towers, which are taking that hot air with hot water entrained in it high up into the atmosphere where it did not formerly exist, do indeed effect the environment, and with it, since they are inseparable, the climate, and you would have to be a fool or moron or lobbyist for the nuclear industry or maybe some government flunky whose job depends on misleading the American people to protect the nuclear industry, to say otherwise, but back to you anyway, tkenny, for your rebuttal attempt which the candid world and myself are waiting with bated breath to hear.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Now there’s the verbose and boring Paul I know and loathe!!!!!
Good to see ya back, sparky. Drone on, no one can stop you!!!!!!
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Wow, I just now read that bacteria are capable of building a lab, engaging in research and create a drug/inoculation/shot that will kill said bacteria, giving them primacy on the food chain………….
Oh, wait bacteria cant do that, but we mere people can.
Sheesh, so close…………..
Chas Cornweller says
Wow! Tee hee…I can almost hear those heads explodin’ all the way up here in my beautiful ivory tower. And how quickly you Neo-cons will turn on one another! It’s like watching a shark feeding frenzy when the chum runs out. But one thing about you folks, honestly, you really can’t handle a bit of introspection. Shine a light on those cold, cold hearts and watch as the cockroaches scatter! HA!
And Susie, dear, poor Susie…remind me of that horrible name I called you again, because, well, thick Libtard that I am…I am just not seeing it. Was it animal? Because, honestly…we are ALL animals. Bi-pedal, conscience (well…some of us) opposable thumbs, speaking animals. Same class and species as our DNA sharing (96%) Primates. Seriously, look it up. We use tools, they use tools. We love our children, they love their children, we cry, they cry, we smile, they smile. Etc, etc. Bla, bla, bla.
And as far as disrespecting women, how so? IF anything, if I was being disrespectful (which I wasn’t) I was being disrespectful to another fellow human being. I would have said the exact same thing to a man. So, in other words, I was equating your statement on the same level as any man. Something Neo-Cons have a very difficult time doing, since so many of their women can be found pulling kitchen duty and are expected to stay in the background with their mouths shut or are still attending high school. I enjoy the company of an intelligent, well-spoken woman who has no compunction in speaking her mind. In fact, I welcome it. So, sorry to say, your comment returned to me and left me wanting, Susie. And to say I sound like a Yankee? Last that I heard, the North won the war, so you were implying that I sound like a winner? So confusing… So, yeah, not much of a conversation with you, huh?
As far as twiddle Dee and twiddle Dum those twin brothers of a higher latitude, the true Yankees of discourse and dislodge are concerned. Well, they have no real concerns. I suspect they sit in a darkened basement (speculating that point-I could be wrong-but statistics has proven otherwise) finger poking their keyboards while spinning snarky euphemisms in their pointy heads while the voice of Hannity or Limbaugh or Michael Savage booms in the background. But while one masters the cut and paste and the other tries to master the English language with the help of the Limbaugh Rosetta Stone, I am afraid their comments really register fairly low on the substance meter. One quibbles about past mis-deeds done dirty, while the other just quibbles. Interesting bunch. With these two, you are guaranteed that an opinion piece will be quickly steered toward the ditch and the steering wheel quickly handed off to others, while they return to the scene of the accident only to comment on the sorry state of the vehicle post-accident. Like I say, interesting bunch. Twiddle Dee and Twiddle Dum. Sorry…am I now disrespecting these find gentlemen? Well, that’s me…an equal opportunity dis-respecter. Feel better, now Ms. Harris?
And lastly, the Cape Charles Mirror itself. Its predecessor began this roll. And the Mirror continues the legacy. My take on this electronic blog is a mixture of marvel and feeling ambivalent. On one hand, there are articles that shines a light on both good and nefarious actions occurring throughout the fair land on the lower Eastern Shore. I know for a fact that Wayne Creed nearly single handily write these articles, attends the meetings and interviews potential news sources to bring to light information that is important for the people to ascertain. The other two news sources digging deep, well…not so much. I have seen and read these other papers. I know what they print and to what line they will step up to but not cross to insure they do not step on the wrong toes. Small towns print at its own peril. Too many tongues wagging, too many families to touch. Truth has its own perils, as well. Wayne does not have that reluctance. He is bold and sometimes puts his foot over that line at his own discretion. But, I have also seen pieces on his blog that would neatly fit in any issue of Boy’s Life or even my old favorite in grade school, Our Weekly Reader. I am not casting shade on Wayne, in fact, anyone of you try to do what he does weekly. It’s bound to be flawed, soft sometimes. But, when truth hits, it hits hard and for those stories, I keep returning. Stories I do not see in the major paper I receive daily. But guess what? Lo and behold, they sometimes magically appear in a major rag where I live a few weeks later. Especially if a stink has been made or nefarious deeds hit hard. But, my point is this; without an opening break, there may be no stink. There may be no story. There may be no truth behind the deal that was made behind closed doors to further someone’s account at the expense of many others. Local journalism is as important as world journalism, maybe more so. All journalism is widely travel lane. Good journalism is a bit more narrowly traveled and winding. Good journalism getting at well-hidden truths is like a hike through thistles and brambles. Wayne knows this. Many of his readers may not.
And for what is it worth, I comment mostly here, because I disagree with something someone says. Their truth is not my truth. My comments do not count for a hill of beans in this crazed world any more than the person I am disagreeing with. I but a minor player in a major league world. But, I make my statement regardless. I do not do it to disrespect anyone. I do not do it to name call or berate anyone any-more than they need it. I comment because some folks are so stuck in their one-dimensional existence they actually need someone like me to rattle their cage every once in a while, to wake them up, to shake them up. Get them thinking, which I KNOW I do. I just think more folks should attend to the issues at hand instead of making excuses why they shouldn’t be attended to in the first place. There is plenty of pain and suffering going around for ALL of us to pay attention to. Myself included…
So, to end this painful read, Susie…if you are still reading this, I did not disrespect you and you know that. Anyone who knows me, knows that I do NOT disrespect women. I respect ALL God’s creatures. And telling folks what they need to learn really doesn’t win you any points. Calling you entitled or hard hearted is not dis-respect. It is what I saw in your short, angry rant. “Human Beings on the very top of the food chain” (entitled). “So sick of Liberal Fem Nazis with food issues” (hard hearted/cold). That’s what I saw. I responded. And personally, if you were to ask me (which I am pretty sure you won’t) the term “Fem Nazis” is not a very flattering term to use against your fellow sister. If you disagree, then just say so. Name calling IS disrespectful. You do know what a Nazis is, don’t you? My Jewish friends sure as hell do. And if you call me a feminist, I will gladly take on that mantle. I have been outspoken about equally issues and women’s rights since I was a teenager. I am proud to stand beside any sister or brother in the name of equality. You cannot shame me there. Because there is no shame. Capisce? So, in closing don’t hand me that bull, I ain’t taking it. Doesn’t belong to me, didn’t ask for it. Wayne, you rock and Gene flip me a Veggie burger next time I darken the Ginger Nut’s door. If I save one acre by starting this riot, then it is worth all of the abuse the other side can dish out. Happy Holidays! Happy Hanukkah! Happy Kwanzaa! Merry Yule! Delightful Omisoka! Happy Birthday Baby Jesus (although he wasn’t born in December but we’ll say it anyway!) Happy Fiesta of Our Lady of Guadalupe! Festivus for the rest of us!
Paul Plante says
Chas Cornweller, let me say at this time of the year, as we are soon to be confronted with the longest night of the year, how very glad we all are to have you among us in here as our very own voice of conscience, as well as our resident nag, now that we don’t hear very much from Hillary Rodham Clinton, anymore, who until recently was the nation’s scold, keeping us all on the path of straight and narrow.
And I have to second what you have said above about the public service to common American citizens like myself the Cape Charles Mirror renders.
Where else can you find such intellectually stimulating conversations as are had in here on a diversity of subjects?
As you so cogently note, Chas Cornweller, in the Cape Charles Mirror there are articles that shines a light on both good and nefarious actions occurring throughout the fair land, not only on the lower Eastern Shore, but elsewhere, as well, including right there in the Ten Miles Square of Washington, D.C., in which place, men and women see all the vices of princely courts: ambition with idleness, baseness with pride, the thirst of riches without labor, flattery, treason, perfidy; but above all the perpetual ridicule of virtue.
And yes, Chas Cornweller, the Cape Charles Mirror does indeed bring to light information that is important for the people to ascertain.
In fact, right now, in another thread in here, Chas Cornweller, we are learning the true story of exactly how it was that Sonia Sotomayor became a supreme court justice in this country, and that was by selling out an honest man so she could score political points for herself and prove her political reliability by covering up endemic public corruption in New York state and by giving the state the right to employ fraudulent psychiatric arrest orders as a means of crushing dissent in the state.
Where else are you hearing about that, Chas Cornweller?
As you say, the other news sources, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Albany Times Union, CNN, Fox, aren’t digging into that story, at all, because of that line they will step up to but not cross to insure they do not step on the wrong toes.
Small towns like Washington, D.C. print at their own peril.
Too many tongues wagging, too many powerful families like the Clintons to touch.
And as my own case clearly illustrates, truth does indeed have its own perils, and they are very serious ones.
And in this case, local journalism is very much as important as world journalism, and likely, maybe more so.
Good journalism getting at well-hidden truths like how Sonia Sotomayor became a supreme court justice is like a hike through thistles and brambles, and thank God, Chas Cornweller, that Wayne Creed knows this and lets that spotlight shine.
America and the world is a better place because of that.
Suzie Harris says
Tuck them back in, your raw nerves that is. For I enjoy plucking them.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Blah blah blah blah blah Chas it still ain’t a burger.
I’ll join you in wishing everyone almost all of your holidays; I reject Ron Karenga’s false kwanzaa.
Gene Kelly says
WOW!! Cape Charles!! It is great to see that the “Beyond Burger” is capable of eliciting such stirring commentary! The Woo Woo reigns supreme in our little burg! Merry Christmas to all!
Paul Plante says
While I am an observer from afar who cannot be there in person to drink in the ambience, I can imagine in my mind that these are indeed the kinds of lofty, intellectually stimulating types of conversations one would find taking place in a setting like Kelly’s Gingernut Pub in Cape Charles, renown for its delicious pub burgers, which has added the all vegan Beyond Burger to its menu, a sandwich which is wonderfully juicy, tasty and unlike other “veggie” burgers, having a meat-like consistency that is sure to satisfy most carnivore yearnings, the great thing about this burger being that Kelly’s treats it straight up pub style, just the way people down there have come to expect from their other offerings.
By the way, it sounds like a real great burger, being made from simple plant-based ingredients, as it is, applied in fresh ways with peas providing the protein and trace amounts of beet lending the beefy red color, while coconut oil and potato starch ensure mouth-watering juiciness and chew, the result being an uncompromisingly delicious burger, made directly from plants, and that taste treat for only $12, coming as it does with Fries, chips or slaw, which would be a bargain at at least twice the price in New York City, where a burger like that might sell for $50 or more, so no wonder customers love it.
As to Mike’s quibbling, the etymology of the word “burger” is that it was coined around 1939 from hamburger, due to incorrect analysis of that term as ham + burger and shortening.
As to its definition, “burger” is defined as:
1.(informal) A hamburger; or
2.(chiefly as a combining form) A similar sandwich or patty.
end quotes
So there, we can plainly see that yes, a veggie burger is as much a burger as is a hamburger, or one as made by Mike where he grinds a 1/3 brisket, 1/3 chuck and 1/3 sirloin mixture to make his BURGERS at home, with buttery brioche bun with lettuce, not very much – just enough to hold the single slice of ‘mater and thick red onion with a nice slice of good cheddar cheese, made out of cow’s milk like God intended, and medium rare, so the juices flow out of it with every delicious bite.
(As an aside, Mike, have you considered adding some possum meat to the mix to give it some extra zing?)
So when Mike says, “God bless ya with yer’ veggie patty but it is not now, nor will it ever be a ‘Burger,’” we can see that he is dead wrong on that score, but since he is Mike, we can accept that and still celebrate him for who he is.
And then there is our dear friend and fellow world traveler and gourmand Chas Cornweller waxing absolutely rhapsodic about huge amounts of wood lands being cut down (Lebanese cedar forest) to build war boats (triremes), only to have them burn or sink to the depths, but you know what?
The Amusing Planet website tells us that it is not so simple as our dear friend and fellow American patriot Chas Cornweller makes it out to be there about who cut down the Cedars of Lebanon.
For example, in ancient Mesopotamian mythology, the cedar forests of Mount Lebanon were thought to be the realm of the gods, guarded by the demigod Humbaba, and in the 4,000-year-old Epic of Gilgamesh, often regarded as the earliest surviving great work of literature, the hero Gilgamesh defeated Humbaba, entered the virgin forests and cut away great number of cedars with which he built walls around the city of Uruk.
Chas Cornweller is trying to blamecast all of that onto the Phoenicians, as if they were the sole culprits, but history tells us that such is not the case at all.
As the story of Gilgamesh’s exploits attest, the cedars of Lebanon were known since historical times, and indeed, the cedars played a key role in creating the name of Lebanon and its glory, for the Lebanese cedar was one of the most valued construction material in the antique world.
As Chas Cornweller states, the Phoenicians did indeed use cedars to build ships in which they sailed the Mediterranean, making them one of the first sea trading nations in the world, but my goodness, Gene, the cedars of Lebanon were also used by the Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks, Romans, and Persians to construct houses and temples, the most famous of which are the temple of Jerusalem, and David’s and Solomon’s Palaces.
So why does Chas Cornweller gloss over all of that as if it never happened?
What is it that he has against the Phoenicians, one must wonder.
As to who cut down the Cedars of Lebanon, the Ottomans used cedar wood as fuel for railway engines because it burned much better than traditional oak, since cedar contains oil, and even during the time of Gilgamesh, Egypt had already cut large amounts of cedar for ship construction and for export.
This continued for several thousand years until the 20th century when British troops of the Second World War finished off most of the remaining forests by using cedar wood to build railroad.
So there is the story of the Cedars of Lebanon that our dear friend and colleague Chas Cornweller chose to omit from his telling of the story.
And all of this as we all sit around here at the CCM enjoying a virtual veggie burger at Kelly’s Gingernut Pub in Cape Charles, renown for its delicious pub burgers!
Boy, it don’t get any better than that is my thought, anyway.
tkenny says
Paul, quite impressed with your calculations there. End of conversation :
https://coastwatch.glerl.noaa.gov/statistic/avg-sst.php?lk=g&yr=2003
I assume you know how to read this. Doesn’t support your theory at all. Everything you stated above is true, however lake effect snow and climate change of Lake Ontario and the surrounding area is not caused by a nuclear reactor on the shore of the lake,.
You can and I’m sure will, have the last word. I’m done.
Paul Plante says
You always say that, tkenny, when your logic begins to fall flat on its face in here, as it is doing in this case of the nuclear reactors warming the environment with their waste heat.
You fold your tent and cut and run, as is your privilege and prerogative as an American citizen, trying in the event of your retreat to make yourself sound exasperated with me, as if I were some ignorant lout incapable of ever rising to your high intellectual level.
But such is not the case at all as we both so well know.
Hence, I can call your retreat for what it actually is – a tactical disengagement on your part so that you don’t further bury yourself under a mountain of flawed logic as you futilely attempt to distract people’s attention in here away from the environmental threat the waste heat from nuclear generating facilities represents to the environment, and consequently, the climate, which is inextricably linked \with the environment.
Check this out, tkenney: The thermal efficiency of a conventional nuclear power station is around 33%.
Therefore, to generate 1,000 MW of electrical power (MWe) in a nuclear plant it is needed around 3,000 MW of thermal power from the fission reaction.
That, tkenny, is from http://www.eurelectric.org.
So what is happening to that two-thirds that is not generating electricity. tkenny?
And if you said it was going out to heat the environment, you would get the biggest kewpie doll up on the top shelf, tkenny, because you would be right.
And that takes us back to my calculations, tkenny, where according to my engineering data search, olympic-size swimming pool are approximately 50 m or 164 feet in length, 25 m or 82 feet in width, and 2 m or 6 feet in depth and those measurements create a surface area of 13,454.72 square feet and a volume of 88,263 cubic feet, so the pool has 660,253.09 gallons of water, which equals about 5,511,556 lbs.
So every second, tkenny, as I said above, that is the amount of water going through that one nuclear plant 3 times 5,511,556 lbs., or 16,534,668 pounds of Hudson River water.
But more to the point of this discussion, tkenny, that is also the amount of heated water that this one plant puts into the Hudson River every second – 16,534,668 pounds that are fifteen (15) degrees warmer than the ambient temperature of the river water, which represents 248,020,020 BTUs of heat energy, tkenny, going into the environment every second because of the nuclear reactor.
That is that sixty-six percent of the energy generated by the nuclear reactor that didn’t go into generating electricity.
That is why there are studies on thermal plumes in the Hudson River such as this: THERMAL EFFECTS LITERATURE REVIEW FOR HUDSON RIVER REPRESENTATIVE IMPORTANT SPECIES Prepared for: Central Hudson Gas & Electric Corporation Consolidated Edison Company of New York, Inc. Orange and Rockland Utilities, Inc. Prepared by Ecological Analysts, Inc., RD 2 Goshen Turnpike, Middletown, New York, March 1978.
There are similar reports for Lake Ontario such as “Remote Sensing Report, Lake Ontario : A Study of Thermal Discharges from Ginna Nuclear Power Station, Oswego Steam Power Station, and Nine Mile Point Nuclear Power Station 1975.”
So certainly, tkenny, thermal discharges of nuclear reactors are a concern, and thanks for playing Devil’s advocate in here to get that story out.
tkenny says
Paul, I assume this is your round about way of backing off your statement that the reactor is causing the lake to warm or that the steam plume from the cooling is causing global warming. I commend you for not promoting Fake News!
Paul Plante says
That is ludicrous of you to even think so, tkenny, dude, where ludicrous is defined as so foolish, unreasonable, or out of place as to be amusing; which your statement above certainly is; or ridiculous, which means deserving or inviting derision or mockery; absurd; and here I make direct reference to your statement above that, “Paul, I assume this is your round about way of backing off your statement that the reactor is causing the lake to warm or that the steam plume from the cooling is causing global warming,” and. “I commend you for not promoting Fake News.”
The only purveyor and promoter of FAKE NEWS in this discussion is Mr. tkenny, a master I admit, of the ancient art of obfuscation, the action of making something obscure, unclear, or unintelligible, as in “when confronted with sharp questions, tkenny resorts to obfuscation,” and balderdashery, which is the art of using pure unadulterated balderdash in a vain attempt to baffle the unsophisticated rustics who tune into these debates for the intellectual stimulation it affords them when the north wind is blowing and the wolves are prowling, and they don’t feel like going outside, but don’t want their minds to go to waste, and sophistry, tkenny, which is the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving, as you are trying to do in here, as if we were all to stupid to know the difference.
Of course those reactors are causing the lake to warm, or more properly, to have a warm surface layer, since we are talking heat transfer to the environment here.
What kind of moron do you take me for that you would have me think otherwise?
And by the way, tkenny, that is a question on the Part II, Principles and Practices Engineering Licensing Exam in New York State to become a licensed professional engineer, such as I am.
It is something engineers like myself study extensively for before the examination, which is an all day affair intended to weed out those unfit to protect and safeguard life, health and property in New York state..
So why would I then act stupid and give up my scientific-based conclusion that I passed the engineering exam with to adopt your conclusion which is based on nothing more substantial than balderdash and hot air.
And of course those plumes cause environmental disruption, tkenny, that has been known since the 1970s, and having been a member of a team doing that research, I am not going to deny that knowledge gained through scientific research to help you perpetrate a hoax on people that nuclear reactors are good for the environment.
The problem for you, tkenny, as I once said to Mike, who incidentally is far more in touch with his feminine side than you are, tkenny, which makes Mike a better all-around balanced person, which is why people like Mike more than you, is just as Forrest Gump once said, stupid is as stupid does, tkenny, and people, here we are, heading for that apex at a frenzied pace, because we have built a machine with no OFF BUTTON.
Do you see what I am saying there about the “NO OFF BUTTON,” tkenny?
It’s about sustainability, versus something berserk and out of control.
In a word, tkenny, and I know you know this at least as well as I, if not better, although you would try in vain to conceal that, it is about the CONCEPT of ENTROPY, tkenny – the idea that everything in the universe eventually moves from order to disorder, entropy being the measurement of that change.
The more heat your machine with no off-button produces, the more disorder in the universe it causes, and that is something you cannot escape, regardless of the sophistry you might employ.
On the subject of entropy, tkenny, and this is the conversation that was buried back in 1975, and is only able to resurface now, that being thanks to the Cape Charles Mirror, those nuclear plants can’t be turned off without destroying the unstable and unsustainable U.S. economy, so the only other alternative is for the supposed “regulatory” agency to keep looking the other way while granting emergency waivers that allow the nuclear facilities to keep raising the water temperature of the receiving bodies more and more, which in turn pumps yet more heat energy and water vapor into the environment, while hoping that nobody will notice.
And most of us won’t, tkenny.
More fools us, then, is how history will look at this age of gluttony and greed we are now mired in, but that is an opinion, of course.
As to the regulatory agencies looking another way, tkenny, to protect the nuclear industry at the expense of the environment, let’s take a look:
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation (NRR) Items of Interest – Week Ending August 19, 2005
Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, Unit No. 1 (NMP1) – Water Temperature Emergency Amendment
On August 12, 2005, the staff issued an emergency license amendment to Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, LLC (the licensee), which revised NMP1 Technical Specification (TS) 3.3.7, “Containment Spray System,” to increase the maximum allowable lake water temperature in TS 3.3.7.f. from 81°F to 83°F.
This change was requested under emergency circumstances to avoid a reactor shutdown due to a higher than anticipated water temperature rise in Lake Ontario and weather forecasts for higher temperatures over the next 10-day period.
TS 3.3.7.g. requires the plant to begin shutting down within 1 hour of reaching the TS 3.3.7.f. limit and be in hot shutdown conditions within 8 hours and in cold shutdown within 24 hours.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/secys/2005/secy2005-0155/2005-0155scy.html
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collecti…05-0155scy.html
Yes, you got it, tkenny, just as I figured you would; they let them take the water temperature even higher, with no review whatsoever of the effects of that temperature rise on the increased amount of evaporation that would cause, given that evaporation is a function of surface area and temperature.
And once heated, that volume of water tends to stay warm, since more heat is going into it, 24/7/365.
Then we have the Fort Calhoun plant in Nebraska, tkenny, which discharges into the Missouri River.
Generic Environmental Impact Statement for License Renewal of Nuclear Plants – Supplement 12 Regarding Fort Calhoun Station, Unit 1
Final Report U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation
Washington, DC 20555-0001
Manuscript Completed: August 2003
Date Published: August 2003
Division of Regulatory Improvement Programs
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation
U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission
Washington, DC 20555-0001
The cooling-water circulation system is operated in compliance with provisions of NPDES Permit NE0000418 for Fort Calhoun Station.
The permit currently limits discharge temperatures to 43.3 C (110 F) and allows a conditional discharge temperature of 44.4 C (112 F) under the terms of a Consent Order that was entered into by the OPPD and the NDEQ (OPPD 2002a).
The terms of the Consent Order allow for continued full-power operation of Fort Calhoun Station during the unusually high ambient river temperatures that have been experienced in the Missouri River in recent years.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collecti…/sr1437s12a.pdf
Now, as to sophistry and balderdash, tkenny, and I am sure you already know this quite well, a GENERIC IMPACT STATEMENT means essentially no review of cumulative impacts, and notice the language about the increased temperature of the river, and ask yourself why the river is getting hot and what that means for evaporation into the atmosphere.
But of course you will say, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that the nuclear plant is not making the river hotter, so that isn’t happening.
And this goes on and on and on, tkenny, as I am sure you know.
People are oblivious to the world around them, tkenny, which is where your advantage in this debate clearly lies.
They spend their time inside air-conditioned cars and offices and homes, or in air-conditioned casinos and gambling joints or on manicured golf courses like this present mindless incumbent in the white house, and so they are living lives completely isolated from the forces of nature around them, while lacking the basic understanding of the hydrologic cycle that school children and simple country folks whose lives are determined by the weather have.
And it is those people, tkenny, like this up-jumped casino operator/TV reality star host we now have in the white house, that we turn to for solutions to this mess, as if the very best advice one can get on the environment has to come from a mindless fool who doesn’t even know where the environment even is.
Ao, tkenny, how do we now go about pulling all of the heat ENERGY we have put into Lake Ontario, for example?
Do we now invent some giant form of refrigerator to remove that heat?
But where will the power then come from to run that refrigeration unit?
Where will the heat from that power generation go to?
Out into space with all the other waste heat we are generating to maintain a lifestyle that is consumptive, which requires more and more environmental destruction and devastation, like blowing up whole mountains, and therefore, unsustainable?
And when you manage to pull all that heat out of Lake Ontario, tkenny, what on earth do you do with it?
Riddle us that, if you would?
Put it in a rocket and blast it off into space?
Or maybe we can get some politicians to come along and tell us there really is no problem, so go back home, for there is nothing here to see.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Gene, I can guarantee that a conversation about your stellar Scallops in Jameson cream sauce would not be nearly as ‘gassy’ as this one about bean patties!!!!!!!
Which, as I may have mentioned……are not now, nor will they ever be…………Burgers…….LOL!!!!!!!
Merry Christmas!!!!!!!!!!
tkenny says
So, is your MO to write longer and more unfocused when you’re boxed into a corner? You have not addressed the graph I provided on average temperatures. According to you we would see a continual increase in water temperature but we don’t. You have not provided any evidence that Lake Ontario’s water temps are increasing due to nuclear reactors. A report from 2005, which by the way is soon to be 18 years old. A request to use warmer water to cool due to weather conditions. If they were not granted the provision they would have to shutdown until the water temperature decreased.
So in the 18 years why haven’t they requested to take water at at even higher temp? You state “And once heated, that volume of water tends to stay warm, since more heat is going into it, 24/7/365” So, maybe the volume of water isn’t heating as you say?
Paul, you stated “Now, as to sophistry and balderdash, tkenny, and I am sure you already know this quite well, a GENERIC IMPACT STATEMENT means essentially no review of cumulative impacts, and notice the language about the increased temperature of the river, and ask yourself why the river is getting hot and what that means for evaporation into the atmosphere”. Hey, Rocket Scientist, you’re talking about a river here. The intake would be north of the out flow. which means the water coming in would be cooler than the water going out. Sooooo, the river surely isn’t heating up due to the reactor, now is it???
You are a salmon swimming the opposite way of all the others (not good) There are something like 500 reactors in the world and Paul Plante is the only person sounding a warning about how they are warming the waters of the world
Paul Plante says
Ah, tkenny, so good to see you back, dude.
And no, tkenny, I am hardly the only person who is sounding that warning, which you would know as well as anyone.
I just Googled this question, tkenny, “are nuclear reactors warming the environment,” and got back several articles on the subject.
For example, The Progressive article “How Nuclear Power Causes Global Warming” by Harvey Wasserman on September 21, 2016:
Supporters of nuclear power like to argue that nukes are the key to combatting climate change.
Here’s why they are dead wrong.
Every nuclear generating station spews about two-thirds of the energy it burns inside its reactor core into the environment.
Only one-third is converted into electricity.
Another tenth of that is lost in transmission.
According to the Union of Concerned Scientists:
Nuclear fission is the most water intensive method of the principal thermoelectric generation options in terms of the amount of water withdrawn from sources.
In 2008, nuclear power plants withdrew eight times as much freshwater as natural gas plants per unit of energy produced, and up to 11 percent more than the average coal plant.
Every day, large reactors like the two at Diablo Canyon, California, individually dump about 1.25 billion gallons of water into the ocean at temperatures up to 20 degrees Fahrenheit warmer than the natural environment.
Diablo’s “once-through cooling system” takes water out of the ocean and dumps it back superheated, irradiated and laden with toxic chemicals.
Many U.S. reactors use cooling towers which emit huge quantities of steam and water vapor that also directly warm the atmosphere.
end quotes
Even Wikipedia, which you despise, has information on the subject of “Environmental impact of nuclear power.”
Under the section “Waste Heat,” which is what we are talking about here, they have this:
Nuclear plants exchange 60 to 70% of their thermal energy by cycling with a body of water or by evaporating water through a cooling tower.
This thermal efficiency is somewhat lower than that of coal-fired power plants, thus creating more waste heat.
During Europe’s 2003 and 2006 heat waves, French, Spanish and German utilities had to secure exemptions from regulations in order to discharge overheated water into the environment.
Some nuclear reactors shut down.
end quotes
Focus on that last sentence, my dear tkenny, and meditate on what it is saying there:
During Europe’s 2003 and 2006 heat waves, French, Spanish and German utilities had to secure exemptions from regulations in order to discharge overheated water into the environment.
end quotes
A heat wave?
Overheated water?
But that cannot be true, can it, tkenny, because nuclear reactors do not put any heat into the environment, so it must have come from WHAT?
Hot air from a bunch of mouth-running politicians and nuclear industry lobbyists and apologists?
Paul Plante says
As to the existential question you have posed to me above here, tkenny, “So, is your MO to write longer and more unfocused when you’re boxed into a corner?,” the answer is obviously no on all five counts, to wit: I don’t have an MO, but thanks for asking, I’m not writing “longer,” I am writing what you have made necessary to write, I’m hardly unfocused, and I am neither in a corner nor boxed into one, either, so that makes no on everything, tkenny.
As to your statement “You have not addressed the graph I provided on average temperatures,” what exactly is there that you want or need addressed, for there really is a wealth of information presented there, tkenny, and then you whine and complain when it takes me more than five or ten words to explain what that graph represents to me, an engineer, and for the record, on a different screen, I have that graph open to refer to, and for the record, what I am looking at is Great Lakes Surface Water Temperature for 2003.
I find myself especially interested in the period January through April and the red line which is Lake Erie and the yellow line which is Lake Ontario.
For that period, Lake Ontario, which receives water from Lake Erie, is warmer than Lake Erie.
To what do you attribute that, tkenny?
And look at the middle of December, tkenny, which is when it gets cold up here and people are heating with electricity.
What do you see?
Or notice?
Because what I notice, and hey, this is just me, the salmon swimming in one direction while a lot of other so-called salmon are swimming in some other direction (not good), which is a sure sign to me they are disoriented and lost and don’t know where they are going, is a SPIKE, tkenny.
The surface temperature of Lake Ontario, according to your own evidence, tkenny, which incidentally is from 2003, so, what, almost fifteen (15) years old, spikes upward, when you would expect it to be falling.
How do you account for that, tkenny?
The December sun, low on the horizon, given that that is the time of the longest night we are looking at there, is providing sunlight to cause that temperature spike?
And that takes us to this statement of yours, tkenny, which is preposterous on its face, given the record in here, where preposterous means contrary to reason or common sense; or utterly absurd or ridiculous, where absurd means arousing amusement or derision: According to you we would see a continual increase in water temperature but we don’t.
That is not according to me, tkenny, that is according to you telling people what it is you want them to think I am telling them.
And we can’t tell anything about what I am talking about from one year’s data, tkenny, so your graph disproves exactly nothing.
What I am saying, and have said, is that when you are putting energy into a pound of water, and you have raised the temperature of that pound of water by fifteen (15) degrees Fahrenheit, then you have put fifteen BTU’s of energy into that pound of water, which now has a different density than colder water, so it will in essence float on the surface of the colder water, thus warming the surface of the water body, which increases the heat and mass transfer at the air/water interface.
That is what I am saying, tkenny, and when you have put that fifteen BTU’s of energy into that pound of water, before it can return to its ambient state, it has to give up that fifteen BTU’s of heat energy to the environment, which warms the environment.
That extra fifteen BTU’s of energy in that one pound of water, tkenny, can heat a lot of air, which is why hot water heating systems are preferred in the cold country, and that, tkenny, as you must remember from basic grade school physics, is because water has 4.23 times more specific heat capacity than does air.
Which takes us to this inane statement of yours, where inane is defined as silly or stupid, as in “don’t constantly badger people with inane questions,” to wit: You have not provided any evidence that Lake Ontario’s water temps are increasing due to nuclear reactors.
I have provided evidence, tkenny – their own engineering studies made it clear that there would be a thermal plume because of ALL those reactors operating and dumping heated water into the lake, and really, tkenny, how on earth could it be otherwise?
That is why you see the surface temperature of the lake getting warmer in December and January, as opposed to colder.
But to wriggle off that hook, tkenny, or to unhoist yourself from your own petard, you will now have to disavow your own evidence, telling me it is an aberration or fluke.
So, what will it be?
The candid world watches with bated breath for your answer as do the unsophisticated rustics up here in the cold country who tune into these debates for the intellectual stimulation it affords them when the north wind is blowing and the wolves are prowling, and they don’t feel like going outside, but don’t want their minds to go to waste.
tkenny says
I’m debating a man who can’t use a chart with hyperlinks. The chart contains information for the years 1996 to 2016. (At the bottom) Across the top of the chart, the last 6 years for that specific Lake.
Lake Erie, being shallower than all the Lakes cools and heats more quickly than the rest of the Lakes. Ontario, which is one of the deepest, tends to stay warmer than the rest. Lake Ontario has never frozen completely. (Claims that it did in 1935 are debatable) https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/02/17/great_lakes_nearly_freeze_over_completely.html
You noticed a December spike for Lake Ontario in 2003. Did you fail to notice that ALL the Lakes spiked at that time? Even up there, the demand for electricity in December is not greater than the demand in July and August; however, you don’t find any year over year increase in water temperature. Why is that?
BTU’s. The mass of the Lake is absorbing the energy from the heated water. How do we know that? The Lake isn’t getting any warmer. Air/water interface, nice word for the creation of steam, which is even more insignificant on the climate than the steam released by the cooling towers. Cooling towers can produce a microclimate. Essentially, with your definition, a heated pool with no cover is contributing to global climate change. Oh, make sure you keep a cover on that hot coffee too.
For the record, the steam released by the cooling towers or by the water returning to the Lake is not increasing your lake-effect snowfall, nor does it seem to be increasing your rainfall. From all the information I can gather no tropical fish have shown up on the shores of Lake Ontario.
Your crusade against boiling water nuclear plants and cooling towers seems to be misplaced. A crusade against lack of maintenance, the greed of propping up obsolete reactors, the possibility of leakage, the lack of security against terrorism seems to be a more righteous cause.
Apologies to anyone foolish enough to try to follow this thread. I’m done.
Paul Plante says
And getting back to you, tkenny, dude, @ December 19, 2017 at 2:25 pm, you say, “You know that’s funny, of all the scientist you could pick you picked Wasserman.”
But I didn’t “pick” Wasserman with the impeccable credentials, who received a Bachelor of Arts in American History from the University of Michigan in 1967, where he was a member of both the Phi Beta Kappa and Phi Kappa Phi academic honor societies, and also earned a Public Teaching Certificate from New York University in 1968, and then a Master of Arts in American History from the University of Chicago in 1974.
What I did was to respond to your statement @ December 19, 2017 at 2:14 am that “There are something like 500 reactors in the world and Paul Plante is the only person sounding a warning about how they are warming the waters of the world.”
And I gave you one other than me.
And really, tkenny, this horsecrap about “warnings” is really very old news now.
If you were to do even a cursory literature search on the subject, tkenny, you would have come across this USEPA Report on “Remote Sensing Report, Lake Ontario : A Study of Thermal Discharges from Ginna Nuclear Power Station, Oswego Steam Power Station, and Nine Mile Point Nuclear Power Station” from 1975 which states that “Powerplants proposed or under construction will substantially increase the heat load rejected to this portion of Lake Ontario during the next 5-10 years, and “In addition, under predominant wind and lake current conditions, the thermal plume from the Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station will extend eastward.”
There is your warning for you, tkenny.
And then you state: “Let me focus you on your original statement – Lake Ontario is warming due to the nuclear reactor sitting on it’s shore.”
My original statement, tkenny, @ December 14 2017 at 7:57 pm, and you can check it out for yourself to make sure, was as follows:
And hey, Mike, the 1970s!
That sure does bring back a lot of memories, eh?
Did I ever tell you about the research I was doing back in the 70’s on the climate effects of nuclear generating facility cooling tower plumes?
That is how long, Mike, we have been aware of the climate change impacts of those cooling towers, but you know what, Mike, and I am sure a savvy dude like you does – that all got the HUSH put on it.
SHHHHHHHHH!
Don’t tell, people, it will make them nervous and if they are nervous they won’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, and it they don’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, they won’t spend money, and if they don’t spend money, the economy will crash, so silence is the best policy.
end quotes
There is what I actually did say, tkenny, and you notice that I was talking about actual research into cooling tower plumes that was suppressed in 1975.
That is how this conversation got started, tkenny, when you came storming in afterwards and said @ December 15, 2017 at 2:08 am and said: Two words – Hog Wash!!
Tell me, in the winter do you wear you tin foil hat under or over your wool cap?
As usually it’s easier to follow a drunk walking down the street than it is to follow your logic in a comment.
I can’t figure out if you’re saying nuclear reactors cause climate change or cooling towers cause climate change.
end quotes
There is where this discussion started, tkenny, with you not having a clue as to what Mike and I were talking about, but wanting to engage, nonetheless, as is your right as an American citizens and God bless this nation’s many veterans for giving you that right, tkenny.
You then said: “Are you saying that a nuclear reactor is the cause for Lake Ontario to warm?”
And what I actually did say was as follows:
And that brings us to the NRC, and cover-ups in the name of continued profits.
Cover-ups done as emergency orders.
When these nuke plants were first licensed, as with the ones on Lake Ontario in NYS, they had a maximum temperature rise for the lake water that they could not supposedly exceed.
Now, like the 17 million gallons per day, each day of operation, with this heat output, you have a cumulative effect, like leaving a pan of water on a stove burner.
No matter how low the heat, it is still going in and the water will eventually boil.
So what did the NRC do when this limit was reached?
Let’s take a look:
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation (NRR) Items of Interest – Week Ending August 19, 2005
Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, Unit No. 1 (NMP1) – Water Temperature Emergency Amendment
On August 12, 2005, the staff issued an emergency license amendment to Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, LLC (the licensee), which revised NMP1 Technical Specification (TS) 3.3.7, “Containment Spray System,” to increase the maximum allowable lake water temperature in TS 3.3.7.f. from 81°F to 83°F.
This change was requested under emergency circumstances to avoid a reactor shutdown due to a higher than anticipated water temperature rise in Lake Ontario and weather forecasts for higher temperatures over the next 10-day period.
TS 3.3.7.g. requires the plant to begin shutting down within 1 hour of reaching the TS 3.3.7.f. limit and be in hot shutdown conditions within 8 hours and in cold shutdown within 24 hours.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/secys/2005/secy2005-0155/2005-0155scy.html
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collecti…05-0155scy.html
Yes, you got it, Mike, as I figured you would; they let them take the water temperature even higher, with no review whatsoever of the effects of that temperature rise on the increased amount of evaporation that would cause, given that evaporation is a function of surface area and temperature.
And once heated, that volume of water tends to stay warm, since more heat is going into it, 24/7/365.
end quote
There is what I actually said, tkenny, and it is quite a bit different from what you would have people believe I said.
By the way, as an aside, I notice that Eastern Shore Community College’s Adult Education Program, in cooperation with the Accomack and Northampton County School Divisions, serves adults by improving English language skills.
Just saying, tkenny, in the spirit of the season.
Paul Plante says
And “GRAND CONSPIRACY THEORIES,” tkenny?
Get real here, dude, isn’t that one of the most overworked phrases in the political lexicon in America, or certainly, in the pages of the Cape Charles Mirror, anyway.
Who but somebody stuck back in the 60s talks about GRAND CONSPIRACY THEORIES these days?
But hey, people, since many of the younger readers in here might be totally unfamiliar with the term, dated as it is, and since the Honorable tkenny has brought up the subject @ December 19, 2017 at 2:25 pm, as in, “Paul you can believe anything you want to believe but when you come here, writing some BS, cherry-picking facts from here and there to support your grand conspiracy theories, you should be call on it,” I think it would behoove us all to take a second here to consider exactly what a GRAND CONSPIRACY THEORY really is, so you people can judge for yourselves if anything our dearly beloved tkenny is saying in that post comes near the truth.
Going to our handy on-line reference Wikipedia, we are told thusly about a “conspiracy theory,” such as our dear tkenny is alleging above here has occurred in this very thread:
A conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes an unwarranted conspiracy, generally one involving an illegal or harmful act carried out by government or other powerful actors.
Conspiracy theories often produce hypotheses that contradict the prevailing understanding of history or simple facts.
end quotes
Has any of that occurred in here?
Let’s check the record to see what the simple facts in this matter really are, to wit, Paul Plante @ December 14, 2017 at 7:57 pm:
And hey, Mike, the 1970s!
That sure does bring back a lot of memories, eh?
end quotes
There are the simple facts and the history here, people.
Mike and I were reminiscing about the 1970s, and if you weren’t alive back then, well, such it is, but Mike and I were, although in different places, and so, every so often, you just like to drop back in time and remember when.
There is no harm in it, afterall, so long as you know you are doing it.
And from there, we went to this recollection on my part, about the 1970s, which some have called the best of times and the worst of times, which I think is hyperbolic, but I digress:
Did I ever tell you about the research I was doing back in the 70’s on the climate effects of nuclear generating facility cooling tower plumes?
That is how long, Mike, we have been aware of the climate change impacts of those cooling towers, but you know what, Mike, and I am sure a savvy dude like you does – that all got the HUSH put on it.
SHHHHHHHHH!
Don’t tell, people, it will make them nervous and if they are nervous they won’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, and it they don’t feel good about themselves and all warm and squishy inside, they won’t spend money, and if they don’t spend money, the economy will crash, so silence is the best policy.
end quotes
That, people, is all actual fact.
So if a conspiracy theory is an explanation of an event or situation that invokes an unwarranted conspiracy, generally one involving an illegal or harmful act carried out by government or other powerful actors, where is the conspiracy theory here?
I’m not giving an explanation of an event, I’m giving a first-hand account of an event that others then might engage in attaching explanations to, some of which might rise to the level of a conspiracy theory, that being that research which I was engaged in in 1975 on the heat and mass transfer characteristics of nuclear facility cooling tower plumes was suppressed.
POOF!
One day, there was a fire . . .
So where is the conspiracy, people, to get a conspiracy theory out of?
If anything, we are talking bullying, intimidation and willful suppression of scientific data showing cooling tower plumes to be a threat to the environment, so that would be a form of collusion, not conspiracy, since nothing is hidden here, except to the unaware.
And that takes us to this second charge leveled against me by our erstwhile on-line prosecuting attorney tkenny, to wit:
Your crusade against boiling water nuclear plants and cooling towers seems to be misplaced.
end quotes
What crusade, people?
Where is the crusade against boiling water nuclear plants and cooling towers in here, where crusade means any vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense or advancement of an idea, cause, etc.?
If there is any crusade on my part, it would be a vigorous, aggressive movement for the defense of the truth based on facts, not opinion, and the advancement of an idea that I don’t like being lied to by public officials at any level of our government, and I don’t like corporations with no regard for our lives or our health or our safety having control over such things through a compliant, sociopathic government willing to turn its back on the health of its citizens in the name of corporate porofits.
That is the type of crusade I would be engaged in, if I were engaged in one.
But in here, Mike and I were just reminiscing about the old times we were once in, and people, that hardly constitutes what you would call a conspiracy theory, let alone a grand one.
And by the way, as a footnote, according to Wikipedia, in a normal winter, Lake Ontario will be at most one quarter ice-covered, in a mild winter almost completely unfrozen, and Lake Ontario has completely frozen over on five recorded occasions: from about January 20 to about March 20, 1830; in 1874; in 1893; in 1912; and in February 1934.
So Lake Ontario does get ice on it, or can.
As to the answer to the question “Why does Lake Ontario not freeze over?,” the computer tells us as follows:
The Niagara River feeds water into Lake Ontario from Lake Erie, providing agitation which keeps the water’s surface from freezing.
end quotes
Given that, you would not expect to see Lake Ontario warmer than the Niagara River in the winter time up here, but it is.
As to the warmest Great Lake, the computer further informs us that Lake Erie is the warmest of the five Great Lakes and Lake Erie is the shallowest of the five Great Lakes, while Lake Ontario is the smallest of the five Great Lakes. which would account for it warming differently than the other Great Lakes.
Under Threats to Lake Ontario, we have as follows:
Today, the greatest threats to Lake Ontario come from urban development, electricity generation, and sewage and stormwater pollution.
end quotes
Ah, yes, back to that heat energy from electricity generation that our dear friend tkenny says has no effect on the lake’s temperature.
And thus ends today’s segment of the GREAT DEBATE in here on the question of does the waste heat from nuclear power generating contribute to climate change.
But don’t go away, because this debate is not yet over and there is more to come on this issue of suppression of data to keep the public unaware.
tkenny says
You know that’s funny, of all the scientist you could pick you picked Wasserman. Wasserman with the impeccable credentials. From your favorite source, “Wasserman received a Bachelor of Arts in American History from the University of Michigan in 1967, where he was a member of both the Phi Beta Kappa and Phi Kappa Phi academic honor societies. He also earned a Public Teaching Certificate from New York University in 1968, and then a Master of Arts in American History from the University of Chicago in 1974.[6]”
Do you not think I won’t look at your references? From your Union of Concerned Scientist – “We advocate the continued prohibition of reprocessing and a ban on the use of plutonium-based fuels. We also support continued research and development of nuclear power technologies that are safer, more secure, and lower cost.”
Let me focus you on your original statement – Lake Ontario is warming due to the nuclear reactor sitting on it’s shore. Paul you can believe anything you want to believe but when you come here, writing some BS, cherry-picking facts from here and there to support your grand conspiracy theories, you should be call on it.
Mike is a very impressionable older gentleman and I don’t want him sounding like an idiot at his next cocktail party.
Paul Plante says
And now, we pause for but a brief moment in this above discussion on the role nuclear power plants play in causing environmental disruption and global warming for an internet presentation of “How heat works,” which is a primer on grade school science from http://thermalinc.com/math/applnotes.htm for our very own Mr. tkenny, to whom we all owe a debt of gratitude for spurring on this vital discussion on an issue of importance to all of us, along with the Cape Charles Mirror for hosting the discussion, and Kelly’s Gingernut Pub, which offers the beyond belief Vegan Beyond Burger, for providing the ambience for a lofty, intellectually stimulating discussion like this to take place in.
Indeed, here to the north of you, up in the cold country, where there is not a lot of heat energy present right now due to artic air forced south by warm air to the west of us, and where we were just recently getting Lake Effect snow off of Lake Ontario, the unsophisticated rustics up here in the cold country who tune into these debates for the intellectual stimulation it affords them when the north wind is blowing and the wolves are prowling, and they don’t feel like going outside, but don’t want their minds to go to waste, have somehow contrived to get a picture of the smiley dude above here eating a veggie burger at the ‘nut and making the universal sign language sign with his left hand for “A.O.K. Works for me, dude,” onto a large screen TV, so when they get together to tune into the Cape Charles Mirror on their various portable handheld devices and make comments among themselves concerning the various posts in here, they pretend they too are at the ‘nut enjoying a veggie burger along with the smiley dude, instead of a cold place with the wind howling outside, and no sunlight.
And with that out of the way, without further adieu, let’s get to tkenny’s basic science lesson on the subject of heat transfer involving water, to wit:
Heat is derived from the motion of molecules, the faster the molecules move the hotter the object becomes.
end quotes
That, people, is the most basic science we have to confront here to understand how it is that nuclear power plants put heat energy into our environment, thus warming it – heat is derived from the motion of molecules, and the faster the molecules move the hotter the object becomes.
What causes those molecules of water to move faster in this case is a heat source called a nuclear reactor, which the website academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/physics/sobel/Nucphys/pile.html informs us, the temperature reached in a nuclear reactor is in the range of 300 degrees Celsius, or 572 degrees Fahrenheit.
So, people, that is some heat that has to be dealt with, 24/7/365, unless the reactor is shut down.
That is the heat source, and in this case, Lake Ontario is the heat sink.
And incidentally, people, the USEPA has a site entitled “Climate Change Indicators: Great Lakes Water Levels and Temperatures” https://www.epa.gov/climate-indicators/great-lakes updated August 2016 which tells us that since 1995, average surface water temperatures have increased slightly for each of the Great Lakes. and recent increases in water temperature have mostly been driven by warming during the spring and summer months, and these trends could relate in part to an earlier thawing of winter ice.
If the winter ice is thawing earlier, then there has to be sufficient extra heat energy available in the lake to provide what is known as the enthalpy of fusion of that ice, also known as latent heat of fusion, which is the change in its enthalpy resulting from providing energy, typically heat, to a specific quantity of the substance, in this case lake ice, to change its state from a solid to a liquid at constant pressure.
Which takes us back to tkenny’s science lesson:
Heat always flows from a substance with a higher temperature to a substance with a lower temperature.
That is to say, that heat is removed from one substance and transferred to the cooler surface.
end quote
In this case, the heat to melt the lake ice would be removed from the lake water, and transferred to the cooler surface, which is the ice.
So, given that, which I am sure tkenny will deny, heat flows from the very hot nuclear reactor with its temperature in the range of 300 degrees Celsius, or 572 degrees F, to the cooling water, in this case water drawn in from Lake Ontario, and then it flows from that heated water to the air over the lake, when the air is colder than the lake water, which it is in the winter, or it flows into the ice which might cover it in the cold of winter, and meantime, winters up this way have been getting warmer and milder, as would be expected when the environment is being surcharged with waste heat.
Getting back to our tutorial for our dear friend and colleague Mr. tkenny, who appears to have been absent the day this basic science was taught, we have:
The energy is transferred to the substance with the lesser energy.
This is important because if we can maintain the temperature surrounding a substance with an equal temperature we can maintain the temperature.
But, if the surrounding temperature is cooler we will remove energy or “heat” from the substance to the surrounding area.
end quote
Earth to tkenny: do you agree with that, or do you intend to be disputative and argue that in the special case of nuclear reactors, that does not happen?
And back to the science lesson:
Temperature can be thought of as two separate variables. Intensity, and Quantity
• Intensity is the temperature and can be measured is F or C for this discussion.
• Quantity is the amount of energy required to raise the temperature and can be measured in “British Thermal Units”.
The BTU is the amount of heat required to heat 1 pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit in 1 hour.
end quotes
And that, people, is a basic natural law, but for some bizarre reason known only to himself, tkenny disavows its applicability to nuclear reactors.
He is using some kind of voodoo science to do that, of course, which is why we are having this basic science lesson for him in here now, while we all sit back and enjoy our own veggie burgers, yum, yum.
And back to the science lesson:
If a BTU is the amount of heat required to heat 1 pound of water 1 degree Fahrenheit, we can establish a relationship with other materials, one (1) pound of steel, 1 pound of air, 1 pound of any substance as to how many BTU’s are required to raise the temperature 1 degree Fahrenheit.
end quotes
Now, when I was young, we were poor, as were many back then, and we didn’t have running hot water in the house, so if you wanted to take a bath, to had to heat a kettle of water on the stove, and when it was boiling, you would put it into the bath tub and then run cold water into it to cool it down to the temperature of bath water, and being silly kids back then, this before television and all of that noise came to the countryside, we would amuse ourselves and keep our minds active and aware by calculating how many pounds of well water at 45 F it would take to cool a pound of boiling water down to bath temperature of say, 90 degrees F, and if you wanted the bath water to be so deep, how many pounds of hot water would you then start with?
When it is one BTU per pound of water to raise it one degree, or lower it one degree, that is simple math for even a child to grasp, and the subject of hot and cold mixing was even easier to grasp, because you had your hand in the water, swirling it around to mix the hot and cold together.
But perhaps tkenny was born in a more modern age, and so, never had to carry kettles of hot water to take a bath in, so we can forgive him his ignorance on that score.
And now, back to the real meat of the lesson:
As it works out it takes less heat (or BTU’s) to heat everything than water.
end quotes
That, people, is the scientific principle which underlies and supports everything I am saying in here, while it cuts the legs right off any counter-arguments tkenny is futilely attempting to make in here that nuclear reactors do not contribute to global warming and climate change.
Getting back to the lesson:
This relationship is the specific heat of a substance.
The specific heat of water is 1 or it takes 1 BTU to raise water 1 degree Fahrenheit.
The specific heat of mild steel is .122 therefore, it takes .122 BTU’s to raise steel 1 degree Fahrenheit.
end quotes
You see what that is saying there, people, about the heat capacity of a pound of water?
If we know the specific heat of a material, the weight of the material, the desired temperature rise and the amount of time we would like to raise the temperature to we can arrive at a simple formula: BTU’ Required = Desired temperature rise * Specific heat * weight of the material / time to temperature in hours.
You see what I am saying about this being simple for some country kids to figure out?
There is no complicated or specialized or esoteric or arcane knowledge involved here, people, at least for country kids who have seen water freeze solid in the winter and turn back to water again in the spring.
And that takes us to the concept of “Latent Heat,” which is the heat required to change the state of a material.
For example, if water is raised to 212°s Fahrenheit the amount of heat required to raise the water each degree is the same (1 BTU ), but, once the temperature reaches boiling point the temperature does not continue to rise.
During this time you can see the effects of latent heat, not with the water temperature, but in the generation of steam.
This same principle can be seen in any material, Ice to Water, Steel to molten steel, many materials from liquid to gas. etc., so again, very basic science here, people..
And that takes us back to air over Lake Ontario, which has a Specific Heat at 40-60 degrees F of .24 BTU/deg F.
What that means is that for every BTU of energy given off or shed by a pound of water in Lake Ontario heated to above ambient conditions by a nuclear reactor, four pounds of air can be heated up one degree F.
That is why hot water heating systems are so popular up north where it does get cold, but if we follow the logic that tkenny wants us to follow, hot water heating systems wouldn’t be able to heat a house, which is silly, people, because they do heat houses in the winter, and where I am sitting typing these words happens to be one of them.
If what tkenny was saying about heat transfer was true, then despite how fast the furnace was running, and how hot the fire was, the water would never get warm, or would never transfer heat to the house, which for it, is the environment.
tkenny says
603,696,483,684,480 – Know what that is? Rough calculation of the gallons of water contained in Lake Ontario. What’s a gallon of water weigh? Let’s say roughly 8.5 lbs. You’re good with calculations, how many BTUs will be needed to raise this amount of water 1 degree?
Now, your calculation will show the “textbook” answer to question but it doesn’t take into consideration any other variables such as depth, bottom contour, water temperature, weather, etc. Your bathtub analogy is also one of those perfect textbook examples but it’s not like a lake. You and a friend of choice could attempt to create a lake-like example by filling your cast-iron tub half filled with spring water, then you add the hot kettle water while your friend keeps adding 2 buckets of spring water to your one kettle. What happens? Your hot water can’t overcome the mass that’s already there
Paul, you were never employed as an HVAC technician were you? I think not.
“That is why hot water heating systems are so popular up north where it does get cold, but if we follow the logic that tkenny wants us to follow, hot water heating systems wouldn’t be able to heat a house, which is silly, people, because they do heat houses in the winter, and where I am sitting typing these words happens to be one of them.
I didn’t really say that, for we all know, that heating systems for a house are sized for the square footage of the house. If you don’t mind, I’ll take your example and change it a bit. We take a common heating system for a 1,500 sqft house and put it inside a 200, 000 sqft unheated warehouse. It won’t be warm in there at all but as you move closer and closer to the metal radiator you will feel warmth. (a micro-climate in the warehouse). The hot water in the radiator quickly releases it’s heat to the metal radiator which in turn slowly releases heat to the air but that’s not like what’s happening at the lake. Warmer water is dumping into cooler water generating steam. Just above the surface the air temperature is warm but Paul is somewhat misleading us in not talking about how lousy air is as a conductor of heat.
For those of you at home who want to try an experiment – open the windows in your house, crank up the heat. Go to the radiator, feel that warmth, step back 10 feet, it’s fricken freezing isn’t it? What happened? Air just can’t hold onto that heat.
So, truly for the last time, cause for creating a micro-climate, you bet. Global warming nope.
And Paul if you want I can produce a list of things that were said in 1975 that was suppose to happen in 5, 10, 20 years that didn’t pan out. That doesn’t make it wrong it just means that studies need to be updated.
Paul Plante says
tkenny, dude, let me say that it is sincerely a pleasure to see you back.
And I want you to know that I am very grieved by your confusion in here, especially at this time of the year in the northern hemisphere, when the energy is low, to the point of where I have been wracking my brains, tkenny, trying to figure out what on earth could make such a dear sweet man as yourself so apoplectic (overcome with anger; extremely indignant) that it would catapult you into a state of extreme high dudgeon (a feeling of offense or deep resentment) and make you go into a lengthy tirade (a long, angry speech of criticism or accusation) culminating in you saying, “From all the information I can gather no tropical fish have shown up on the shores of Lake Ontario.”
HUH?
That, tkenny, is what I originally thought when I saw you uttering that apparent inanity (a nonsensical remark or action).
Why on earth would tkenny be raving about there being tropical fish in Lake Ontario, of all places?
How would they get there?
Swim up the St. Lawrence River from the Atlantic Ocean?
Or maybe migrate from Lake George into and through Lake Champlain and down the Richelieu River, and then up the St. Lawrence?
And why would they want to do that?
Lake Ontario is hardly tropical, afterall, so why would tkenny think it would hold any attraction for tropical fish?
And in reviewing everything that has gone before in here, I believe I have hit on the source of tkenny’s confusion, which I think is in this following exchange between myself and Mike, who has an intuitive grasp of this stuff and so does not get confused as does tkenny, whose understanding of reality seems far more rudimentary and tenuous, what with thinking there are tropical fish in Lake Ontario, to wit:
You see, Mike, and this is something that has been known since probably before you were born, nuclear plants produce prodigious amounts of heat which must be disposed of to the environment.
end quotes
Could that be it, I wonder?
Is that the statement that set tkenny off in here to the point of where it seemed he would literally go berserk, ranting about no tropical fish being found on the shores of Lake Ontario?
That colloquy then continued as follows:
Case in point:
“Drought could force nuke-plant shutdowns”
By MITCH WEISS, Associated Press
Last updated: 12:52 p.m., Wednesday, January 23, 2008
LAKE NORMAN, N.C. — Nuclear reactors across the Southeast could be forced to throttle back or temporarily shut down later this year because drought is drying up the rivers and lakes that supply power plants with the awesome amounts of cooling water they need to operate.
end quotes
Focus on that word “awesome,” Mike, which means “extremely impressive or daunting; inspiring great admiration, apprehension, or fear.”
Getting back to that article:
“Water is the nuclear industry’s Achilles’ heel,” said Jim Warren, executive director of N.C. Waste Awareness and Reduction Network, an environmental group critical of nuclear power.
“You need a lot of water to operate nuclear plants.”
He added: “This is becoming a crisis.”
end quotes
A crisis, Mike, where crisis means a time of intense difficulty, trouble, or danger or emergency, disaster, catastrophe, calamity, predicament, plight, mess, trouble, dire straits, difficulty, extremity, a time when a difficult or important decision must be made, and that was back in 2008, so, a lot of water over the dam since then, ain’t it, Mike?
So you with your sensitivity to these kinds of things, anyway, can appreciate just how much worse for the environment and humankind things have become since then.
end quotes
Is that what did it, people, that last sentence there about Mike’s sensitivity to these kinds of things, which enables him to appreciate just how much worse for the environment and humankind things have become since then?
But no, on reflection, it couldn’t be, because there I am not talking about Lake Ontario.
What we were talking about is as follows:
And once again back to that article, Mike:
All but two are built on the shores of lakes and rivers and rely on submerged intake pipes to draw billions of gallons of water for use in cooling and condensing steam after it has turned the plants’ turbines.
At some plants — those with tall, Three Mile Island-style cooling towers — a lot of the water travels up the tower and is lost to evaporation.
Progress spokeswoman Julie Hahn said the Harris reactor, for example, sucks up 33 million gallons a day, with 17 million gallons lost to evaporation via its big cooling towers.
end quote
You see what I am saying here, Mike?
That 17 million gallons lost to evaporation per day from this one plant alone is water in a vapor form that goes high into the atmosphere.
This is what our research back in 1975 was looking into, where does that water go to.
And the simple answer is right up there above our heads, where it is unstable, and thus, will come back down which I believe it is doing now, as our research predicted it would.
And that is not any kind of rocket science, at all, as any little kid who has ever thrown a rock in the air, only to have it hit them in the eye on its way back down could tell you.
end quotes
Is that what then spurred tkenny to say “Mike is a very impressionable older gentleman and I don’t want him sounding like an idiot at his next cocktail party,” as if a dude like Mike, who has an appreciation for Gene’s stellar Scallops in Jameson cream sauce at the ‘nut, could ever possibly sound like an idiot at a cocktail party on the subject of waste heat from nuclear reactors warming the environment?
And from there, as we search for the clue as to what set tkenny off and got him raving about tropical fish in Lake Ontario, that dialogue between myself and Mike continued as follows:
And that brings us to the NRC, and cover-ups in the name of continued profits.
Cover-ups done as emergency orders.
When these nuke plants were first licensed, as with the ones on Lake Ontario in NYS, they had a maximum temperature rise for the lake water that they could not supposedly exceed.
Now, like the 17 million gallons per day, each day of operation, with this heat output, you have a cumulative effect, like leaving a pan of water on a stove burner.
No matter how low the heat, it is still going in and the water will eventually boil.
end quotes
And let me stop right here and point to those last two sentences above, and the cumulative effect, because you have a continuous flow of heat energy exiting the nuclear plants, not plug flow.
It is that cumulative effect that tkenny is denying in here, as if you could pour heat into water all day long and never change the ambient temperature.
But I can see how that exchange could have confused tkenny, who apparently interpreted that as meaning the Lake Ontario is now tropical.
Getting back to the Paul and Mike exchange:
So what did the NRC do when this limit was reached?
Let’s take a look:
Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation (NRR) Items of Interest – Week Ending August 19, 2005
Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, Unit No. 1 (NMP1) – Water Temperature Emergency Amendment
On August 12, 2005, the staff issued an emergency license amendment to Nine Mile Point Nuclear Station, LLC (the licensee), which revised NMP1 Technical Specification (TS) 3.3.7, “Containment Spray System,” to increase the maximum allowable lake water temperature in TS 3.3.7.f. from 81°F to 83°F.
This change was requested under emergency circumstances to avoid a reactor shutdown due to a higher than anticipated water temperature rise in Lake Ontario and weather forecasts for higher temperatures over the next 10-day period.
TS 3.3.7.g. requires the plant to begin shutting down within 1 hour of reaching the TS 3.3.7.f. limit and be in hot shutdown conditions within 8 hours and in cold shutdown within 24 hours.
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/commission/secys/2005/secy2005-0155/2005-0155scy.html
http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collecti…05-0155scy.html
Yes, you got it, Mike, as I figured you would; they let them take the water temperature even higher, with no review whatsoever of the effects of that temperature rise on the increased amount of evaporation that would cause, given that evaporation is a function of surface area and temperature.
And once heated, that volume of water tends to stay warm, since more heat is going into it, 24/7/365.
end quotes
BANG!
There it is, people, the apparent offending sentence that drove the poor tkenny over the edge and into apolexia and high dudgeon: And once heated, that volume of water tends to stay warm, since more heat is going into it, 24/7/365.
No wonder the confusion, people – there I am talking about an CONTROL VOLUME wrapped around a thermal plume in Lake Ontario, which is how engineers like myself and Mike tend to analyze these matters, while tkenny thought I was talking about the whole volume of water in Lake Ontario.
So what we have there, people, is a vast difference in thinking, myself as an engineer would see things versus how tkenny would see things from his perspective, whatever in the end it might be, beyond crusading for nuclear power, regardless of the cost.
And notice I said “tends to stay warm.”
“Warm,” of course, is a relative term, not an absolute term, and “warm” has to be taken in relation to the surroundings.
If it was down below zero up here when I went out in the morning, and up to 20 by noon, I would say that that was warm compared to earlier in the day, even though somebody down south like tkenny would swear on a whole stack of credible Ph.D. witnesses that 20 degrees F. above zero is frigid.
And that is what makes these types of conversations so hard to have, especially when someone like the NRC or tkenny have already taken a position that nuclear generating facilities cause no environmental harm.
Then, they simply employ a lawyer’s trick from up here in corrupt New York state, where you don’t find any conversations of substance like this taking place, called the Dame Snow Jeopardy, where you state your conclusion and then reject all evidence which refutes it as a means of substantiating the already arrived at conclusion.
But more on that in the next installment of the GREAT DEBATE in here on the question of “does the waste heat from nuclear power generating contribute to climate change,” courtesy of the Cape Charles Mirror with ambience supplied by Gene’s Gingernut Pub, home of the fantabulous Beyond Burger, made from simple plant-based ingredients, applied in fresh ways with peas providing the protein while trace amounts of beet lend the beefy red color and coconut oil and potato starch ensure mouth-watering juiciness and chew, the result being an uncompromisingly delicious burger, made directly from plants.
As to tropical fish, however, the Canadian Association of Aquarium Clubs has this to say on that subject:
Numerous discoveries of aquarium pets and plants in Ontario waters are reported each year.
The following are examples of some of the more common aquarium species that have been reported in Ontario.
Fanwort (Cabomba caroliniana) is an aquarium plant that was discovered in Kasshabog Lake near Peterborough in July 1999.
It can form dense stands, crowding out other native plants, clogging drainage canals and streams, interfering with recreational uses (eg. swimming or boating) and the appearance of the lake.
It also has the potential to displace other native aquatic plant species, alter fish communities and disrupt the natural processes in shallow lakes and bays.
Aquarium fish such as the pacu, oscar or piranha are discovered in Ontario’s waters each year.
Contrary to popular belief, several species of aquarium fish are tolerant of cooler waters and could become established in Ontario.
In 1999, four pacu caught by anglers were reported.
One of these was found in a warm water outflow where they have an increased
chance of surviving winters and becoming established.
end quotes
With that, I will leave tkenny to ponder and cogitate and meditate on that last sentence about tropical fish surviving in Lake Ontario in warm water outflow.
Paul Olante says
tkenny, dude, first off, let me wish you the best of the season, and then, so we don’t have to wade through the forest of irrelevancies you have presented us with above, like how cold somebody might be if they left their windows open in the winter, which some people actually do to keep their houses cooler, let’s fast forward back to the beginning of this discussion on the question of “does the waste heat from nuclear power generating contribute to climate change,” courtesy of the Cape Charles Mirror with ambience supplied by Gene’s Gingernut Pub, home of the fantabulous Beyond Burger, and get to the bottom line in here:
1) Are you for being lied to by public officials at any level of our government; and
2) Do you like corporations with no regard for our lives or our health or our safety having control over such things through a compliant, sociopathic government willing to turn its back on the health of its citizens in the name of corporate profits?
For that is really what we are talking about in here – what is known in government and federal judicial circles as “putting on the HUSH!”
SHHHHHHHHH, tkenny, you know what I am saying?
Let’s keep the facts of alleged harm to the environment being caused by the nuclear industry from the people, who are ignorant anyway.
Are you for that, tkenny?
Or against that?
Paul Plante says
And while we are at it, tkenny, where do you stand on the subject of “environmental justice?”
“Environmental justice” is a term that comes to us in the Executive Summary of the Generic Environmental Impact Statement for License Renewal of Nuclear Plants, Supplement 14 Regarding R.E. Ginna Nuclear Power Plant, Final Report, US. Nuclear Regulatory Commlssion, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, Washington, DC 20555-0001, Manuscript Completed: December 2003, Date Published: January 2004, as follows:
Environmental justice was not evaluated on a generic basis and must be addressed in a plant-specific supplement to the GEIS.
end quotes
For those unfamiliar with the term and what it is supposed to mean to us as American citizens, the USEPA informs us as follows https://www.epa.gov/environmentaljustice :
Environmental justice is the fair treatment and meaningful involvement of all people regardless of race, color, national origin, or income, with respect to the development, implementation, and enforcement of environmental laws, regulations, and policies.
end quotes
Does anyone think we even come close to that here in America today?
Getting back to the EPA:
EPA has this goal for all communities and persons across this nation.
It will be achieved when everyone enjoys:
* the same degree of protection from environmental and health hazards, and
*equal access to the decision-making process to have a healthy environment in which to live, learn, and work.
end quotes
Will that occur in our lifetimes, does anyone think, that we all, regardless of income, and in spite of a lack of political clout because we don’t have the money to buy it with, will enjoy the same degree of protection from environmental and health hazards?
And can you be said to have equal access to the decision-making process to have a healthy environment in which to live, learn, and work, when critical data you would need to make a sound and rational decision has been withheld from you to protect the profits of an industry?
Paul Plante says
And while we are waiting on tkenny to get with his people to figure out what his position is going to be on these existential questions I have posed to him above concerning environmental justice, which we do not have in this country, especially in the corrupt state of New York, and that thanks to now-Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor when she was a circuit judge on the federal 2d Circuit Court, of Appeals in NYC in 2005, where incidentally, a veggie burger that you can get at Kelly’s Gingernut Pub for $12 would likely cost you $50 or more, and whether he likes corporations with no regard for our lives or our health or our safety having control over such things through a compliant, sociopathic government willing to turn its back on the health of its citizens in the name of corporate profits, I would like to take a moment, courtesy of the CCM, to conduct some clearing operations on the forest of irrelevancies that tkenny has confronted us with above in his vigorous defense of the nuclear power industry.
And with that said, speaking of defense of the nuclear industry, I think the key reason the Ginna Nuclear facilty on Lake Ontario was recommended for relicensing can be found in this sentence from the Executive Summary of the Generic Environmental Impact Statement for License Renewal of Nuclear Plants, Supplement 14 Regarding R.E. Ginna Nuclear Power Plant, Final Report, US. Nuclear Regulatory Commlssion, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, Washington, DC 20555-0001, Manuscript Completed: December 2003, Date Published: January 2004, as follows:
If the Ginna OL is not renewed and the plant ceases operation on or before the expiration of the current OL, then the adverse impacts of likely alternatives will not be smaller than those associated with continued operation of Ginna.
end quotes
And that goes to my comment to Mike above that a GENERIC IMPACT STATEMENT means essentially no review of cumulative impacts.
So how do we now go about, pulling all of the heat ENERGY we have put into Lake Ontario, for example?
Do we now invent some giant form of refrigerator to remove that heat?
Where will the heat from that power generation go to?
Out into space with all the other waste heat we are generating to maintain a lifestyle that is consumptive, which requires more and more environmental destruction and devastation, like blowing up whole mountains, and therefore, unsustainable?
And when you manage to pull all that heat out of Lake Ontario, what on earth do you do with it?
Put it in a rocket and blast it off into space?
Or maybe we can get some politicians to come along and tell us there really is no problem, so go back home, for there is nothing here to see.
As Forrest Gump once said, stupid is as stupid does, and people, here we are, heading for that apex at a frenzied pace, because we have built a machine with no OFF BUTTON.
Those nuclear plants can’t be turned off without destroying the unstable and unsustainable U.S. economy, so the only other alternative is for the supposed “regulatory” agency to keep looking the other way while granting emergency waivers that allow the nuclear facilities to keep raising the water temperature of the receiving bodies more and more, which in turn pumps yet more heat energy and water vapor into the environment, while hoping that nobody will notice.
And most of us won’t.
More fools us, then, is how history will look at this age of gluttony and greed we are now mired in.
And that then brings us to this attempt at misdirection from tkenny:
Your bathtub analogy is also one of those perfect textbook examples but it’s not like a lake.
You and a friend of choice could attempt to create a lake-like example by filling your cast-iron tub half filled with spring water, then you add the hot kettle water while your friend keeps adding 2 buckets of spring water to your one kettle.
What happens?
Your hot water can’t overcome the mass that’s already there.
end quotes
I will admit that at first glance, a very cursory first glance I must add, that appears to be a formidable scientific conundrum for me to have to overcome, but a second casual glance reveals a host of problems with tkenny’s model starting with the fact that he is talking about a finite slug of hot water, just one kettle full, which means finite heat energy to be added to the environment.
But in Lake Ontario, we don’t have just a kettle full of hot water being added to the lake at a time as a slug of hot water.
We have a continuous flow of heated water being added 24/7/365, so that totally negates any applicability tkenny’s bathtub model might have had to this issue of nuclear reactor waste heat contributing to global warming and climate change.
As to how much heat energy that is in the case of the Ginna Plant, we know from section 1.3 of the GEIS, entitled “The Proposed Federal Action” that the plant has a pressurized water reactor with the capability to produce 490 net megawatts of electric power, and plant cooling is provided by a once-through cooling system to remove waste heat from the reactor steam-electric system, with cooling water being withdrawn from Lake Ontario, and we also know that the plant is at best 33% efficient, so to produce that 490 net megawatts, the plant has to actually produce 1470 megawatts, two-thirds of which is lost to the environment as waste heat.
Using the conversion factor of 1 megawatt (MW) = 3,412,141.16 btu per hour (btu/h), we find that the plant produces 5,015,847,505.2 btu/hr, two-thirds of which, or 3,310,459,353.43 btu/hr, is lost to the environment, chiefly the waters of Lake Ontario.
And that 3,310,459,353.43 btu/hr of heat energy being released into the water of Lake Ontario every hour is then available to heat the environment.
But for the operation of this one nuclear plant alone, that 3,310,459,353.43 btu/hr of heat energy being released into the water of Lake Ontario every hour would not be available to heat the environment, plain and simple.
How tkenny can argue that 3,310,459,353.43 btu/hr of heat energy being released into the water of Lake Ontario by this one nuclear plant alone out of existence as if it never was quite frankly eludes me, but one continues to hold out hope that tkenny will return to tell us where that heat energy, once produced, really does go to, if it doesn’t go into the environment to change it, because once the transformation in the nuclear reactor has created that heat energy, it exists and has to be accounted for,
It can’t simply disappear as tkenny is positing in here, as if we were all a bunch of rubes or hicks or yokels with hay in our ears simple enough to believe that that much heat energy can go into the waters of Lake Ontario every hour, and yet, produce no change at all.
And that then takes us to this statement from tkenny which seems to contradict his “no heat transfer” model, to wit:
Just above the surface the air temperature is warm but Paul is somewhat misleading us in not talking about how lousy air is as a conductor of heat.
end quotes
In fact, that warm water is less dense than cold water, so what we have in Lake Ontario is a river of warm water flowing on top of the colder water underneath which is more dense, and every hour, that river of warm water has an additional 3,310,459,353.43 btu/hr of heat energy being added to it at its source, and because of boundary layer conditions, that heat energy is carried along with that that river of warm watyer, transferring heat to its surroundings as it goes.
And while still air in fact does serve as an insulator, the air over the lake is hardly still, and that warm air over the lake water when it is cold is going to be more buoyant than the cold air around it, so it is going to rise, creating convection currents which will bring in more cool air to be heated and rise, thus changing the environment, and the climate, since water governs climate.
BUT, as the air heats up above the lake, and as the lake heats up around the plume, the temperature gradients diminish, reducing heat transfer rates, which means the heat energy in the plume then travels further from the source, affecting the climate in an ever-increasing distance from the source.
That is what tkenny is asking us to ignore.
Why?
Paul Plante says
And to bring this episode of “PUTTING ON THE HUSH, SHHHH, Don’t tell them so they won’t know” to a badly-needed focus, I would like that focus to begin with this statement from tkenny which has been uttered by tkenny over and over in here as he argues, very eloquently, actually, but you would expect that in here, on behalf of the nuclear power industry, as follows:
So, truly for the last time, cause for creating a micro-climate, you bet.
Global warming nope.
end quote
Where I would like the focus to go is to “creating a micro-climate, you bet,” where “microclimate” is defined as “the climate of a very small or restricted area, especially when this differs from the climate of the surrounding area,” to see if we can see what it is tkenny is actually trying to say with his term “microclimate.”
Staying with the example of the R.E. Ginna nuclear reactor on Lake Ontario, since we have hard data for that site from the Generic Environmental Impact Statement for License Renewal of Nuclear Plants, Supplement 14 Regarding R.E. Ginna Nuclear Power Plant, Final Report, US. Nuclear Regulatory Commlssion, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, Washington, DC 20555-0001, Manuscript Completed: December 2003, Date Published: January 2004, as opposed to a bunch of evasions and speculation from my debating partner in here, the Honorable tkenny, in section 2.1.3, Cooling and Auxiliary Water Systems, we are given this following information:
Lake Ontario is the source of water for the turbine condenser cooling and most auxiliary water systems at Ginna.
Water from Lake Ontario reaches Ginna through a submerged offshore intake.
Water returns to Lake Ontario through a surface shoreline discharge.
The total nominal flow of water for these systems is about 22,370 L/s (354,600 gpm).
end quotes
As I said above, if I were to crusade in here for something, it would be for truth based on facts, not emotions or opinions, or somebody’s feelings, and there is a fact for us right there that figures into our calculations of the heat energy given off to the environment by just this plant alone – that figure of total nominal flow of water for those systems being about 354,600 gpm, which at 8 pounds per gallon, represents 2,836,800 pounds of water per minute being drawn in from Lake Ontario for this one plant.
Then, from that document, we know this fact, as well:
A flow of approximately 21,245 US (340,000 gpm) is used to cool the turbine condenser, and the rest of the water is available for auxiliary systems such as service water and fire protection.
end quote
So, what we are interested in then is that 340,000 gpm of cooling water, which is 2,720,000 pounds of lake water per minute going through this plant, into the intake, and back out again at the discharge canal back into the lake as heated water.
As to that cooling system, the GEIS Supplement tells us this information:
The turbine condenser cooling system removes heat via the main condensers.
The system consists of an offshore intake structure designed specifically to minimize the possibility of clogging, an inlet tunnel, four traveling screens, two circulating water pumps, and shoreline discharge via a short discharge canal.
Water used to cool the turbine condenser is discharged into the discharge canal.
The water discharged into the canal enters Lake Ontario at the shoreline.
The normal temperature increase over the ambient water temperature at the point of discharge is about 11°C (20°F), and the size of the thermal plume is normally about 71 ha (175 ac).
end quotes
Hard numbers, people.
First off, the temperature rise.
The water going out, every pound of it, which the GEIS Supplement tells us is 2,720,000 pounds of lake water per minute, has had twenty BTU’s of thermal energy added to it by the nuclear reactor, which means that every minute, according to the official numbers, 54,400,000 BTUs of thermal energy are going out into the environment of Lake Ontario.
That that heat energy was already having an impact on the environment in terms of warming fourteen (14) years ago in 2003, what tkenny wants us to believe is a “microclimate,” is readily apparent from this statement from the GEIS Supplement that the “size of the thermal plume is normally about 175 ac,” or 7,623,000 square feet of area, that back in 2003 was being replenished every minute with an additional 54,400,000 BTUs of thermal energy to heat the environment with.
So, with respect to heating the environment, consider this: before the plant was built, there was no naturally occurring thermal plume on the lake.
By 2003, there was a thermal plume from one plant alone covering 175 acres in area.
So how big has it grown today?
And note the “weasel words” there, people, where “weasel words” are defined as “words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading” – the size of the thermal plume is normally about 71 ha (175 ac).
What “normal,” people?
What is “normal” about that thermal plume, besides nothing whatsoever?
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Dear Lord,
In 2018, I ask but one thing…….Save America from egghead engineers who think their degrees validate every single thing they say.
I deal with so many of them daily, and their ideas run from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Go build some solar panels, Paul. They are SO GOOD for the environment. Sudbury, Ontario may disagree but hey, YOU know better…………..
As for me? I’m taking some of this filthy lucre and enjoying a retreat from reality up at the Mirror Lake Inn. I’ll think of you, Paul as I sip my wine.
And rest easy in the knowledge that a BEAN PATTY is not now nor will it ever be a burger.
Go Nuclear!!!!! Power the Globe!!!!!!
Paul Plante says
Hey, kids, look, it’s Mike!
I told you he would show up, and here he is, just like Santa Claus.
And Mike, we share your pain when it comes to your prayer to the Dear Lord above to save America from egghead engineers who think their degrees validate every single thing they say, and since it is you that is making that prayer, there are a bunch of people up this way who really like you, Mike, so they are going to join in that prayer with you, in the hopes that that will help to get your voice heard above the din and cacophony.
And we can do nothing more than agree heartily with you, Mike, when you say you deal with so many of them daily, and their ideas run from the sublime to the ridiculous.
Isn’t that just so true, Mike?
But truthfully, Mike, I don’t believe that Generic Environmental Impact Statement for License Renewal of Nuclear Plants, Supplement 14 Regarding R.E. Ginna Nuclear Power Plant, Final Report, US. Nuclear Regulatory Commlssion, Office of Nuclear Reactor Regulation, Washington, DC 20555-0001, Manuscript Completed: December 2003, Date Published: January 2004 was written by an engineer.
More likely some public relations firm they hired.
And while we are on that subject, Mike, did I ever tell you about that graduate level course I took in writing environmental impact statements?
That is where I learned about the use of “weasel words,” which are defined as “words or statements that are intentionally ambiguous or misleading,”
Spin, Mike!
Confuse people!
Then, they won’t be able to comment intelligently.
Big money or lot’sa lucre, as you say, Mike, for somebody psychopathic enough to get into that environmental impact writing game.
On that subject, Mike, do you know the difference between a sociopath and a psychopath?
First off, Mike, and this according to WebMD, you won’t find the definitions in mental health’s official handbook, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, because doctors don’t officially diagnose people as psychopaths or sociopaths.
Notwithstanding, Mike, most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits and people like that have a poor inner sense of right and wrong.
According to L. Michael Tompkins, EdD., a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center, a key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he or she, in the case of now-Supreme Court Justice Sonia Sotomayor, has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong.
A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience, Mike.
If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to.
Meanwhile, a sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak.
He or she may know that taking your money is wrong, and he or she might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop their behavior.
Both lack empathy, Mike, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel, but a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex.
Someone with that personality type, Mike, sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.
In 2005, Sonia Sotomayor, who I now believe is a psychopath, not a sociopath, saw me as an object she could use for her own benefit to get a seat on the United States, and now she is there, Mike, just like that.
But I digress, Mike.
I mention her, Mike, in the context of engineers, because thanks to her, engineers who won’t lie and distort data or use weasel words to confuse people in environmental impact statements can’t practice as engineers in New York state.
Only engineers who are politically reliable and who can be trusted by slimeball politicians to do “the right thing” can practice the profession in New York state.
In the movies and TV shows, Mike, psychopaths and sociopaths are usually the villains who kill or torture innocent people, and in real life, some people with antisocial personality disorder can be violent, but most are not.
Did you know that?
Instead they use manipulation and reckless behavior to get what they want, and in that, they, like Sonia Sotomatyor, are skilled at climbing their way up the corporate ladder, even if they have to hurt someone to get there.
And build some solar panels?
Boy, Mike, are you ever out of touch with reality with that statement.
Where have you been, Mike?
Don’t you know that the two companies asking for blanket “safeguard” protection from the United States government, Georgia-based Suniva and Oregon-based SolarWorld USA, are solar panel manufacturers that make photovoltaic cells, the tiny chips that convert solar energy into usable power?
Over the past few years, Mike, they claim a flood of less-expensive components from Chinese solar manufacturers have put them at a disadvantage, so the two firms have since filed for bankruptcy and have laid off thousands.
So why should I be so silly to jump into that marketplace, Mike?
And for you taking some of this filthy lucre and enjoying a retreat from reality up at the Mirror Lake Inn, I’ll think of you, Mike, as I sit by my fire in my snug home, sipping my wine, because this morning up this way, it was zero, and tonight it will be below zero, and tomarrow even further below zero than that, so you are heading into the DEEP FREEZE up there, Mike.
And this weekend, there might be a Nor’easter to boot, so, Mike, dude, do yourself a favor, and pack some long johns and a portable shovel, so you can dig yourself out in case it gets necessary.
And Mike, while you are freezing your butt off up there, rest easy in the knowledge that thanks to Kelly’s Gingernut Pub, and its fantabulous Beyond Burger, a sandwich wonderfully juicy, tasty and unlike other “veggie” burgers with its meat-like consistency that is sure to satisfy most carnivore yearnings, including yours, Mike, the BEAN PATTY now is and will ever after be a burger.
Paul Plante says
I just heard the update for the Adirondacks, Mike.
A wind chill advisory is in place, and temperatures through the weekend are forecast to be in the single digits for the highs, with it plunging to below zero during the night.
Maybe you’ll get to see what your nose feels like when it is thirty below.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
“wonderfully juicy, tasty and unlike other “veggie” burgers with its meat-like consistency that is sure to satisfy most carnivore yearnings, including yours, Mike, the BEAN PATTY now is and will ever after be a burger.”
Why go through all that when one can just have a REAL burger? And why do you confused vegetarians ALWAYS try to make it ‘meat like”? Why, we have this thing called “meat” that works jus’ fine.
Paul, get a friend, or a freaking robot. You are off the wall. Really dude, get help.
Paul Plante says
“Best veggie burgers ever!,” Mike.
So says the tripadvisor site in its review of Delta Blue, 2520 Main St, Lake Placid, NY 12946-4320, which I why I bet you are going up there, Mike, to try one out, to see what all the modern people in touch with their inner selves are raving about, without all that animal grease clogging up their plumbing, you know what I mean, Mike.
In a review on March 1, 2014, under the heading “Best veggie burgers ever!” this is what it said, Mike, and if this doesn’t get the salivary glands of a well-known gourmand like yourself salivating, it’s hard to think of what could:
It’s hard to get good veggie burger anywhere!
Let alone a meat loving restaurant like Delta Blue!
But they are so good!!!
Way to love your vegetarians too!!
end quote
Now, how about that a for rave review, Mike, but who am I kidding here – that review is probably why you are heading north into an ICE BOX in an attempt to escape from reality, just to see if they really are as good as everyone says they are.
And since what happens in Lake Placid stays in Lake Placid, nobody will be the wiser that you tried a bean patty on a bun and found it both divine and superb.
We can just see you, Mike, skulking in in a trench coat and sunglasses with a fedora pulled low over your eyes, so nobody can really see your face.
Or maybe you will dress up like a lumberjack and try to pass yourself off as a local lumberjack come in out of the forest to partake of a veggie burger, as so many health-conscious lumberjacks up that way are doing now that the alternative is so readily available, because who is more health-conscious than a lumberjack, Mike.
Those dudes know, Mike, that for some reason based on science, the grease in those meat burgers you chow down on selectively compete with brain cells for room inside your cranial cavity, so each time you ingest more of that grease, it goes right to your head, so that instead of having a lot of brain cells inside your head, you have a lot of grease, instead.
That’s why pretty much en masse they all have gone over to the veggie burger, Mike, and truthfully, dude, that is the road you ought to travel, as well, if you don’t want to one day wake up to find yourself with a head full of grease instead of brain cells.
So listen to those lumberjacks while you are up there, Mike, and pay heed to what they are telling you, and that will set you on the path to where you belong.
And Mike, be sure to thank them, don’t just take them for granted!
They don’t do that for just anybody, you know.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Ah, Paul no thank yew……….I am not a fan of veggie patties, but as Escoffier once said…..to show me the true measure of a chef, have him make me a burger.
I will be at the Inn, enjoying their lovely venison with coffee sauce, and a nice port.
You, I do so hope you enjoy your roots, nuts and berries as you wander, friendless and lonely in Hillary’s upstate nirvana.
And really, Paul? Of the two of us, do you really think that all of us presume it is I who wears the trench coat and fedora? Sir, you paint a picture of yourself that I assure you is unflattering. We all see your unshaven, wrapped in rags, mumbling erudition as a sign of mental instability due to tragic loneliness.
Animal fats, the ONLY way to cook.
Marsh Hen says
Here he is, in all his glory:
https://www.newsday.com/news/health/new-york-va-center-one-of-slowest-to-process-veterans-claims-1.5165026
Paul Plante says
You’re a bigger hoot than Mike is, Marsh Hen.
I was never in Da Nang, Viet Nam in my life, nor have I ever lived on Long Island, so there is somebody in all his glory, but it sure isn’t me.
And Marsh Hen, why are you singling out that veteran for ridicule in here?
Why are there so many people down here in Virginia who are so virulently anti-veteran?
What do you have against veterans, Marsh Hen?
Why the animus?
Little Lee Lee says
1) A Leftist says, “If it saves just one innocent life we should repeal the 2nd amendment and ban guns.”
2) I say, “If it stops just one murder, robbery, rape, etc., we should repeal immigration and ban all illegal aliens.”
Paul Plante says
Cool your jets there, Little Lee Lee, before you blow out a vein in your head or something.
If a Leftist says, “If it saves just one innocent life we should repeal the 2nd amendment and ban guns,” ask him or her if they have ever read the Constitution on amendments to the Constitution.
In fact, you would do well to read that section yourself.
It is Article V, which states “The Congress, whenever two thirds of both Houses shall deem it necessary, shall propose Amendments to this Constitution, or, on the Application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States, shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, which, in either Case, shall be valid to all Intents and Purposes, as Part of this Constitution, when ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the several States, or by Conventions in three fourths thereof, as the one or the other Mode of Ratification may be proposed by the Congress.
So if a Leftist wanted to strip out the 2d Amendment of the Constitution, that is the hurdle they must try to jump, and it is highly doubtful that an amendment in the Bill of Rights could be stripped out.
And you should read the Supreme Court’s 2008 decision in District of Columbia v. Heller, as well, Little Lee Lee.
In that decision, the Supreme Court has definitively held that the Second Amendment protects an individual’s right to possess a firearm unconnected with service in a militia, and to use that weapon for traditionally lawful purposes, such as self-defense within the home.
Moreover, this right applies not just to the federal government, but to states and municipalities as well.
In Heller, the Court held that (1) the District of Columbia’s total ban on handgun possession in the home amounted to a prohibition on an entire class of “arms” that Americans overwhelmingly chose for the lawful purpose of self-defense, and thus violated the Second Amendment; and (2) the District’s requirement that any lawful firearm in the home be disassembled or bound by a trigger lock also violated the Second Amendment, because the law made it impossible for citizens to use arms for the core lawful purpose of self-defense.
The Court reasoned that the Amendment’s prefatory clause, i.e., “[a] well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,” announced the Amendment’s purpose, but did not limit or expand the scope of the operative clause, i.e., “the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.”
Moreover, the prefatory clause’s history comported with the Court’s interpretation, because the prefatory clause stemmed from the Anti-Federalists’ concern that the federal government would disarm the people in order to disable the citizens’ militia, enabling a politicized standing army or a select militia to rule.
In McDonald v. Chicago, the Court struck down laws enacted by Chicago and the village of Oak Park effectively banning handgun possession by almost all private citizens, holding that the Fourteenth Amendment incorporated the Second Amendment right, recognized in Heller, to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense.
The Court reasoned that this right is fundamental to the nation’s scheme of ordered liberty, given that self-defense was a basic right recognized by many legal systems from ancient times to the present, and Heller held that individual self-defense was “the central component” of the Second Amendment right.
Moreover, a survey of the contemporaneous history also demonstrated clearly that the Fourteenth Amendment’s Framers and ratifiers counted the right to keep and bear arms among those fundamental rights necessary to the Nation’s system of ordered liberty.
So there is what your hypothetical Leftist is up against, Little Lee Lee, and as you are so concerned about it, I’m surprised you didn’t research it better, because the answers are right there at your fingertips.
And when you say, “If it stops just one murder, robbery, rape, etc., we should repeal immigration and ban all illegal aliens,” what about all the red-blooded American citizens in this country who are murderers, robbers, rapists, a class which seems to have a lot of out top Americans in it?
What about them, Little Lee Lee?
Are their murders rapes and robberies more acceptable to you than the rapes, murders and robberies of an immigrant?
Paul Plante says
Details, Marsh Hen.
You’re not really a detail-oriented person, are you.
You’re more one of those who doesn’t rely on reason, letting your raw and frayed nerve endings guide your actions instead.
Case in point, you have an article there dated April 29, 2013, which is four (4) years ago, and in that article, your version of Paul Plante, who is not me, and never was, is 63 years old, which would make him 67 today, while I have posted in here before as to being over 70:
Plante, 63, a Vietnam War vet, filed the claim with the Manhattan office when he could no longer hold a job as a painter because Type 2 diabetes left him with no feeling in his lower left leg.
end quote
And the dude was or is a painter, Marsh Hen, while I am a licensed professional engineer, which I have posted before in here.
And that dude was in Da Nang in 1967, which is over 565 kilometers, or 351 miles from where I was, two years later, in 1969:
Vietnam War veteran Paul Plante of Huntington is pictured in Da Nang, Vietnam in 1967 on the first day of his service.
end quotes
You see what I am saying there, Marsh Hen?
Your lack of attention to little simple details had you make a very public screw-up in here, in front of all the candid world that watches our every moves in here, Marsh Hen, in an effort to find out what makes Americans tick, if anything.
And what about this crap, Marsh Hen, while we are on the subject of your Newsday article about someone other than me:
Monday, Israel announced legislation that would force the VA to grant an automatic 40 percent disability rating and the corresponding provisional benefits to any veteran who has waited more than 125 days to have a disability claim decided.
end quotes
Force the VA to grant an automatic disability rating as if they were handing out candy, instead of taxpayer dollars?
What kind of bull**** is that, Marsh Hen?
Are you for the VA handing out your taxpayer dollars like candy because this progressive Democrat congressman pandering for votes and political contributions thinks they should?
But that is for a different thread, because in here, we are extolling the many virtues of the revolutionary and fantabulous Beyond Burger at Kelly’s Gingernut Pub, and drinking in the ambience with the smiley dude in the picture above, while conversing on the side about “PUTTING ON THE HUSH,” which means the stifling or outright crushing of dissent by municipal or state officials with the concurrence and approval of the federal government of the United States of America through its federal judiciary, which can make laws disappear as if they never were, along with the rights those laws were intended to protect, which takes us back to 1969, Marsh Hen, because in 1969, when I was in Viet Nam fighting for your freedom to malign and mock the veterans who fought for your freedom, I also voted by absentee ballot to amend the New York State Constitution Article XIV, as follows:
Constitution of the State of New York Art. XIV § 4.
[Conservation of natural resources and scenic beauty; pollution abatement; acquisition and preservation of lands as state nature and historical preserve]
The policy of the state shall be to conserve and protect its natural resources and scenic beauty and encourage the development and improvement of its agricultural lands for the production of food and other agricultural products.
end quote
You see what’s happening there, Marsh Hen?
That is true democracy in action there, the people, not the hack politicians who would sell us out for a dime in their pocket, were determining what the policy of the state should be with respect to conserving and protecting its natural resources and scenic beauty and encouraging the development and improvement of its agricultural lands for the production of food and other agricultural products.
That Constitutional amendment I voted for while serving this country in Viet Nam in 1969 so you could go to bed at night, Marsh Hen, not having to live in fear of the things that go bump in the night, continued as follows:
The legislature, in implementing this policy, shall include adequate provision for the abatement of air and water pollution and of excessive and unnecessary noise, the protection of agricultural lands, wetlands and shorelines, and the development and regulation of water resources.
end quotes
You see what we did there, Marsh Hen – in 1969, we, the people of New York State, grateful to Almighty God for our Freedom, and in order to secure its blessings, told our state legislature exactly what it was that we expected of them with regard to the abatement of air and water pollution and of excessive and unnecessary noise in the state.
Because of that Constitutional Amendment, which I have had upheld in a lawsuit filed by myself against the corrupt New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation was created by statute in 1970 to enforce those laws.
But it didn’t, Marsh Hen, and you know why?
Because it was staffed in positions of authority with political hacks who took their direction from the two political parties, not the people, and not the law, which I proved over and over again in a series of successful lawsuits against the corrupt New York State Department of Environmental Conservation, until I finally had the door closed in my face by the corrupt New York State Department of Environmental Conservation and the Office of the New York State Attorney General, which exists in New York State to protect endemic public corruption that feeds the corrupt politicians be retaliating against persons like myself who would dare to stand up on two legs to challenge that corruption.
So successful is the Office of the New York State Attorney General in that endeavor, stifling and crushing dissent, backed up by the full force of the federal 2d Circuit Court of Appeals in New York City and the Office of the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of New York, that all one hears these days is the sounds of silence when it comes to dissent in this state, where we have nothing that compares to the political independence of the Cape Charles Mirror.
HUSH!
SHHHHHH!
Everybody keep quiet, and they won’t know what is going on!
Is that what you are for, Marsh Hen?
The candid world would like to know.
Marsh Hen says
I really do not care how you feel or what you copy and paste.
Paul Plante says
While I in my turn do care that you smeared a veteran you don’t even know, or know nothing about, posting a link tom a picture of him above here and saying “Here he is, in all his glory,” right after Mike got done talking about a disabled combat veteran as being unshaven, wrapped in rags, with mumbling erudition as a sign of mental instability due to tragic loneliness.
You have “outed” that veteran whose picture you posted a link to as being unshaven, wrapped in rags, with mumbling erudition as a sign of mental instability due to tragic loneliness based on nothing more than Mike’s on-line psychiatric evaluation of how he sees combat veterans from his perspective, and obviously yours, as well.
By outing that veteran, Marsh Hen, you have harmed his reputation and you have stolen valor from him.
Doesn’t that in any way trouble you, or are you a psychopath without a conscience?
And what is this crap you are spewing about “there he is in all his glory?”
What “glory,” Marsh Hen?
Where are you seeing any “glory” there?
Have you ever been shot in combat, Marsh Hen?
Have you ever been blown up and ripped apart in combat?
Have you ever been poisoned with Agent Orange?
Where is the glory in any of that, Marsh Hen?
The candid world would like to know.
Paul Plante says
You sure are a hoot, Mike, the way you can pick simple alphabet letters like A and B and C right out of thin air like you do, and then use them to make words and phrases and even complete sentences at times to spin fascinating yarns with in here, as you have done above here, stereotyping me by casting me in one of your internet psychodramas as the poor downtrodden Viet Nam combat veteran we all see with their unshaven, wrapped in rags, mumbling erudition as a sign of mental instability due to tragic loneliness, and how true that is in way too many cases, Mike, and thank you from this veteran for pointing that out to people who otherwise might be ignorant of that fact.
Although to be truthful, Mike, there aren’t a lot of those type of Viet Nam veterans around anymore, because they are dead, so now, you are really talking about the Iraq and Afghanistnam veterans.
And as for me, Mike, despite your attempt to characterize me as one of them, I never was one of them, and I am probably one of the few people you have ever in your life met who has been reviewed or examined by one of the top psychiatrists on this country and has been pronounced quite sane.
Can you make the same claim, Mike?
Indeed, Mike, and I am glad you brought that up in here in the context of “PUTTING ON THE HUSH,” where political dissent can now be stifled and crushed by the expedient of having political doctors fraudulently “certify” the dissenters to be mentally ill and dangerous and in need of immediate incarceration in a Gulag, in a transcript in United States District Court – Northern District of New York dated October 20, 1992, and entitled EXAMINATION OF DR. LAWRENCE C. KOLB, M.D. by RENSSELAER COUNTY ATTORNEY ROBERT A. SMITH, ESQUIRE, we have as follows concerning my actual mental health, Mike, versus your image of what you would want it to be to fit your stereotype of what you think combat veterans are really like:
SMITH: I believe at one point in your testimony, you characterized Paul Plante as a man of high principles and I believe you also said in words or substance that he was accepting of directions and orders.
Is that a fair statement?
KOLB: It was my estimation of the man’s personal make-up!
end quotes
A man of high principles, Mike, not the poor downtrodden Viet Nam combat veteran we all see with their unshaven, wrapped in rags, mumbling erudition as a sign of mental instability due to tragic loneliness.
But the United States of America today is really not a good place or a healthy place for a licensed professional engineer with high principles, is it, Mike, when what the people really want is an engineer with low principles who will lie for them and get them what they want.
And I am the living proof of that, Mike.
As to who Lawrence C. Kolb was, Mike, Wikipedia tells us that Lawrence Coleman Kolb (June 16, 1911 – October 20, 2006) was an American psychiatrist who was the New York State Commissioner of Mental Hygiene from 1975 to 1978.
During World War II, he went into the Navy and was stationed aboard hospital ships and then put in charge of a clinic for “battle fatigue” in Portsmouth, New Hampshire.
After the Navy, Kolb worked at the National Institute of Mental Health in Bethesda, Maryland and the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
In 1954 Dr. Kolb was appointed chairman of the Department of Psychiatry at Columbia University Medical Center and director of the New York State Psychiatric Institute.
Kolb oversaw numerous clinical and research advances during his 21-year tenure, the longest of any director.
In 1975 Kolb left his posts at Columbia to become the New York State Commissioner of Mental Hygiene and correct abuses in the state system of mental health.
He died on October 20, 2006 in Orlando, Florida, Mike, and yet, in my case, his words live on in that sworn testimony, which is as he wanted it, because he did not like seeing combat veterans like myself being maliciously smeared with the label of mentally ill and dangerous simply because they stood up to serve their country in a time of war when others chose to stay home and live a life of ease and luxury.
Paul Plante says
Happy New Years, Mike, hope the venison wasn’t overcooked and too gamey tasting for your gourmand’s palate.
And I see Lake Placid was 19 below zero at 6 this morning.
That probably has you wishing, like Donald Trump, for some global warming to make Lake Placid feel like Florida.
And this will tickle your fancy, Mike.
Rick Perry is going to recommend to Trump that our tax dollars be used to subsidize the nuclear industry in this country to boost their profits for them, as we enter into that phase of our failing nation where borrowed money paid for by the taxpayers is used to guarantee profits for bidness in this country.
That should put the “happy” into New Years for you, alright.
Now, if it was only 85 and balmy in Lake Placid instead of 19 below zero, what a wonderful world for you it would be.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Sorry Paul, I likes it cold. Ergo, Lake Placid.
Paul, Paul Paul. Such false opprobrium over a supposed slight to a vet. Why, you you POS made fun of my friend, the Vet who was killed as he co-piloted the plane on 9/11. Read my comments again, POS. I never once mentioned Vets, it is clear that you and John Kerry had the same reason for service: to insult and debase Servicemen. Paul why do you hate Veterans? Look at your responses…YOU hate Vets.
And ya wanna play that game, Paul? You are not half the man your father was when he died at 91. Not even one tenth of the man he was, nor will you ever be.
Now, take your sad, lonely pathetic little life and go bother someone else. Your cut and paste erudition has grown tiring.
prp322@yahoo.com says
Here, easy, easy, get him down slowly, that’s it, that’s it.
Now, get a pillow or jacket or something under his feet to elevate them to get some blood back to his head.
Beat’s me what’s wrong with the dude.
All of a sudden, a great gout of foam came out of his mouth and he started raving about someone whose father died when he was 91, and how whoever that phantom person was he was raving at would never be even one tenth of the one who died when he was 91, and then he started trashing around like a wild man.
Sad, isn’t it?
And oh, yeah, I remember him also raving about someone cutting and pasting something somewhere, but he never said why.
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
“One is the loneliest number that Paul ever knew….2 can be as sad as 1 but Paul won’t ever know that cuz he’s alone……….”
Hey tinfoil hat wearin’ 9/11 conspiracy kook, take a hike in the woods.
Paul Plante says
People who want to “insult and debase Servicemen” do not enlist in the United States army in a time of war, or any time, actually.
People who want to “insult and debase Servicemen” remain civilians.
People who want to “insult and debase Servicemen” would find life hard for them in the military, where they would be surrounded by nothing but servicemen, and if they spent their time in service insulting and debasing servicemen, it is likely they would end up court martialed and separated from the service as being unfit to wear the uniform.
I, on the other hand, have not one, but two personal letters of commendation from my commanding officers, commending me on the high standards I maintained as an American serviceman.
For example, 15 July 1969: By the Direction of the President, the Air Medal, First Oak Leaf Cluster is presented to Paul Plante who distinguished himself by meritorious achievement, while participating in sustained aerial flight, in support of combat ground forces in the Republic of Vietnam.
During all these flights, he displayed the highest order of air discipline and acted in accordance with the best traditions of the service.
By his determination to accomplish his mission, in spite of the hazards inherent in repeated aerial flights over hostile territory, and by his outstanding degree of professionalism and devotion to duty, he has brought credit upon himself, his organization, and the United States Army.
Or this: The Secretary of the Army has awarded the Army Commendation Medal, First Oak Leaf Cluster to Paul Plante for meritorious service, in the Republic of Vietnam.
Through his diligence and determination, he invariably accomplished every task with dispatch and efficiency.
His unrelenting loyalty, initiative, and perseverance brought him wide acclaim and inspired others to strive for maximum achievement.
Selflessly working long, arduous hours, he has contributed significantly to the success of the allied effort.
His commendable performance was in keeping with the finest traditions of the military service and reflects distinct credit upon himself, his unit, and the United States Army.
end quotes
I submit, Mike, that that is not someone who joined the Army to “insult and debase Servicemen.”
And I have never seen any evidence that John McCain hates veterans.
Perhaps you could give us some, Mike.
And I don’t waste my energy hating people, Mike.
That is self-destructive behavior, and I don’t indulge or engage in self-destructive behavior, as it is bad for one’s soul.
I leave that to people like you and the Marsh Hen.
And what is this obsession the two of you have with cutting and pasting, which is nothing more than a short-hand method of importing data from one file into another file?
Do you think it should be banned, or something?
And have you ever bothered to consider that to employ cutting and pasting, which I certainly do, whenever possible, to save time, you have to know something exists in the first place so that you can find it and cut it to paste elsewhere.
Said another way, to successfully employ cutting and pasting as a time saving measure, you have to have knowledge in advance, knowledge which is gained by continual study.
Perhaps that is what disturbs the two of you so much, that part about the need for knowledge.
Gene Kelly says
The Beyond Burger……whodathunkit!! Jaysus!!!
Mike Kuzma, Jr. says
Gene, it’s NOT A BURGER!!!!
LOL!!!!!!!!
Slainte, my friend. A happy, healthy and prosperous New Year!!!!!
Paul Plante says
And getting back to our dear friend and debating compatriot tkenny, and his position that there is no impact to our earth’s water from waste heat being pumped into it continuously, we have this to consider on that subject from the WASHINGTON POST story “Monster storm to blast East Coast before polar vortex uncorks tremendous cold late this week” by Jason Samenow, 2 January 2017, to wit:
First, a very large and powerful storm will hammer coastal locations from Georgia to Maine with ice and snow.
By Thursday, the exploding storm will, in many ways, resemble a winter hurricane, battering easternmost New England with potentially damaging winds in addition to blinding snow.
Forecasters are expecting the storm to become a so-called “bomb cyclone” because its pressure is predicted to fall so fast, an indicator of explosive strengthening.
By the time the storm reaches the ocean waters east of Long Island and eastern New England on Thursday, it will be explosively intensifying.
The storm’s central pressure will have fallen 55 millibars in just 24 hours — an astonishing rate of intensification.
“Some computer models are projecting a minimum central air pressure of below 950 millibars at its peak, which would be nearly unheard of for this part of the world outside of a hurricane,” wrote Mashable’s Andrew Freedman.
“For comparison, Hurricane Sandy had a minimum central pressure of about 946 millibars when it made its left hook into New Jersey in 2012.”
Winds will crank in response to this pressure drop, howling to at least 30 to 50 mph along the coast.
Winds will be considerably stronger over the ocean — exceeding hurricane force — where enormous waves will form.
end quote
So, an extreme low pressure system, explosively intensifying. which
would be nearly unheard of for this part of the world outside of a hurricane.
And little Johnny, what causes low pressure systems like hurricanes?
According to Weather Questions,com (yes, I am cutting and pasting this because it is so much more efficient than copying it word for word), hurricanes are intense low pressure areas that form over warm ocean waters in the summer and early fall.
Their source of energy is water vapor which is evaporated from the ocean surface.
end quotes
So, warm water then is needed, and it appears from this forecast that we have plenty available, despite it being January, as opposed to summer or early fall.
Getting back to WeatherQuestions:
Water vapor is the “fuel” for the hurricanes because it releases the “latent heat of condensation” when it condenses to form clouds and rain, warming the surrounding air.
end quote
That is what tkenny and I were debating, whether that doesn’t happen, as tkenny seems to maintain, or whether it does, as I maintain.
When there is little wind shear, this heat can build up, causing low pressure to form and the low pressure causes wind to begin to spiral inward toward the center of the low, which help to evaporate even more water vapor from the ocean, spiraling inward toward the center, feeding more showers and thunderstorms, and warming the upper atmosphere still more.
Hurricanes almost always travel poleward at the end of their life cycle, helping to transport excess heat out of the tropics toward higher latitudes, but sometimes the hurricane will merge with an extratropical (non-tropical) storm system, which can cause temporary intensification of the storm, as was the case with Hurricane Sandy which hit New England in late October, 2012.
And now, it is early January 2018, not late October, so roughly five years later, and several months later in the season, and we have that phenomena about to repeat itself, except that now it is quite cold, and there still is enough heat energy in that water to cause this to happen so late in the year.
Hurricanes gradually die as they move over cooler waters, which do not have the heat energy necessary to evaporate sufficient water vapor into the atmosphere to fuel the hurricane, and yet here we are, watching that very process happen in real time.
tkenny, dude, where has all that heat energy come from?
The sun?
tkenny says
Why Paul, it comes from all those nuclear reactors in the Caribbean? So that engineering degree extends to Meteorology too?
Paul R. Plante says
tkenny, dude, engineering degrees extend to whatever it was the specific engineer wanted it to extend to.
To get the degree, you need so many hours.
But you get to customize what those hours are.
And yes, meteorology, a difficult subject, by the way, was a graduate level course I took as part of my selection of courses to qualify for a master’s degree with, in engineering, environmental engineering, to be specific, a course which no longer exists at that school, by the way.
But to understand the atmosphere, tkenny, and you know this as well as I, you have to understand and accept that it is a thermodynamic engine which operates according to natural law, not the puny laws of “science” mankind futilely wishes to impose on it.
You put heat energy into that thermodynamic engine, even that from a cup of hot coffee, as you have so astutely observed in a previous writing, and that engine will respond just as a BMW responds to a slight touch on the gas pedal.
And just as if you got real cocky at how you thought your BMW could handle and take that hairpin turn at speed, and in the course of trying to do so, you found you had your foot just a bit too far in on the gas pedal, once you put that heat energy into the environment, tkenny, you cannot get it back out.
And the result is a storm like this, which up this way, but further east, is going to be a killer.
We’re on the far western edge and we’ll get 8 or more inches.
But further east have the high wind warnings out, which is going to whip that snow into a frenzy, and could likely blow down trees and power lines just as the temperature thanks to this storm is going to drop like a rock.
Five above or so will be the high temperature here Saturday, and down it is going at night, but as a child, I remember days of thirty below at night with it struggling to get to minus 10 in the warm part of the day, so I’m prepared for it, tkenny, burrowed down into the ground as I am like an ancient Scandinavian with my thermal mass to keep me from freezing, with my wood fire to keep me warm.
Now, think about the irony here, tkenny.
If your theory were really operative, I could keep that fire cranked all day long to the point of melting down the stove from the heat, and yet, the house around the stove would never get a degree warmer.
If that were true, tkenny, I’d be pretty much screwed, wouldn’t I?
That’s why I like my theory better, because it makes me feel warmer when I am sitting by the fire at night.
Paul Plante says
Personally, I think it is the ambience as much as the fare.
A mere hamburger in the same setting wouldn’t provide the same intellectual stimulus as does the Beyond burger, which takes us beyond the dull and insipid conversation associated with the eating of animal fat in the guise of a hamburger and into a higher plane of existence.
For proof of that, scroll to the top and gaze in the face of the smiley dude eating a Beyond burger, and that is all the proof one could need.
Madam XY says
OMG! Even though I never eat out, I gotta try the Beyond Burger! Can I call in for two to go? Can’t wait to try the Beyond Burger! Yum.🍔🍔
tkenny says
Obviously, that environmental engineering degree isn’t worth a hill of beans. Would you like me to find a high school student enrolled in a building trades class to explain to you why your house is staying warm?
Paul Plante says
I can tell you why my house is staying warm, tkenny.
No need to trouble or distract some high school student enrolled in a building trades class to explain to me why my house is staying warm, tkenny, when I am the one who both designed and built the house I stay warm in, for the express purpose of being able to stay warm in it when winter comes up here, which it is doing today with skin stripper winds that strip every ounce of heat they can from a house not designed around them, as mine is.
You know, tkenny, build with nature, don’t fight against it.
It’s a matter of harnessing the three modes of heat transfer, tkenny, and you are right about the environmental engineering degree being totally worthless, by the way, which is a societal issue, although in my case, the knowledge gained was not worthless, at all.
The three modes of hear transfer, tkenny, are conduction, convection, and radiation,
The interiors of all my external walls, tkenny, are lined with Mylar film with a mirror coating facing in towards the heat.
So I’m not wasting heat by radiating it out to the environment.
And I heat my floors, tkenny, so you are surrounded by heat radiating upwards.
All in all, tkenny, it is already a very energy efficient house, and I am always working on it to make it even more so.
It would be stupid not to, wouldn’t it?